Why is something wrong?

[Nimos]

This is a bit of a weird question or thought excise, which I think could be interesting to hear people thoughts about. All religious and non religious views.

It's not uncommon that words like evil and wrong gets thrown about in discussions, but what exactly make something wrong?

Let's take a simple example of "Setting fire to a living cat, just for doing it." and then ask the question why is that considered wrong?

Doing a bit of speculation here to just push it forward and getting to the point. So most people will say, because it causes the cat pain, but why is that considered wrong? What decide or why should we care whether the cat is in pain or not?

It might sound strange, because we are all or at least the majority in agreement that it is wrong. But doesn't really explain why that is the case, especially because we gladly slaughter and eat animals in the millions. Yet hurting them to much before we do, we see as wrong.

Atheists will obviously not be able to turn to a God, so would be interesting to hear what their thoughts are, and being one myself I will give my own view in just a second.

For religious people that might believe that God played a role, depending on what you believe, please elaborate on it, if you know your views are not widely known by others. So I will just use the big religions here as an example.

So if God decided that humans should feel wrong about such things, why do you think that God thought it was wrong, why should he care? And even if God cares for animals as his creation, he clearly didn't care enough for them to prevent humans from doing such things?

My own view is that, im not really sure, why it is wrong to burn a cat alive, when going all the way down the ladder, like why is causing pain wrong? why is killing someone wrong?

I mean, we all know it and live by it, yet I don't really know what the explanation is, expect our emotions and intelligence somehow makes it so, I would guess. But still that doesn't really explain why hurting a cat would be an issue.
It makes sense when talking other humans of the same race, yet we still go to war and torture, kill and treat each other quite bad in a lot of cases. I even think that a lot of humans are likely to treat animals better than other humans. Which might be, because we see them as lesser, pets or innocent beings, maybe?

But even from an evolutionary point of view, I don't really get why hurting animals would be wrong. I can understand why endless slaughtering might not be, as we could kill ourselves. But can't really figure out why we consider it wrong, besides again, our complex brain and emotions.

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?

 

[viole]

This is a bit of a weird question or thought excise, which I think could be interesting to hear people thoughts about. All religious and non religious views.

It's not uncommon that words like evil and wrong gets thrown about in discussions, but what exactly make something wrong?

Let's take a simple example of "Setting fire to a living cat, just for doing it." and then ask the question why is that considered wrong?

Doing a bit of speculation here to just push it forward and getting to the point. So most people will say, because it causes the cat pain, but why is that considered wrong? What decide or why should we care whether the cat is in pain or not?

It might sound strange, because we are all or at least the majority in agreement that it is wrong. But doesn't really explain why that is the case, especially because we gladly slaughter and eat animals in the millions. Yet hurting them to much before we do, we see as wrong.

Atheists will obviously not be able to turn to a God, so would be interesting to hear what their thoughts are, and being one myself I will give my own view in just a second.

For religious people that might believe that God played a role, depending on what you believe, please elaborate on it, if you know your views are not widely known by others. So I will just use the big religions here as an example.

So if God decided that humans should feel wrong about such things, why do you think that God thought it was wrong, why should he care? And even if God cares for animals as his creation, he clearly didn't care enough for them to prevent humans from doing such things?

My own view is that, im not really sure, why it is wrong to burn a cat alive, when going all the way down the ladder, like why is causing pain wrong? why is killing someone wrong?

I mean, we all know it and live by it, yet I don't really know what the explanation is, expect our emotions and intelligence somehow makes it so, I would guess. But still that doesn't really explain why hurting a cat would be an issue.
It makes sense when talking other humans of the same race, yet we still go to war and torture, kill and treat each other quite bad in a lot of cases. I even think that a lot of humans are likely to treat animals better than other humans. Which might be, because we see them as lesser, pets or innocent beings, maybe?

But even from an evolutionary point of view, I don't really get why hurting animals would be wrong. I can understand why endless slaughtering might not be, as we could kill ourselves. But can't really figure out why we consider it wrong, besides again, our complex brain and emotions.

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?

What does something be good? Like chocolate, for instance.

ciao

- viole

 

[Mock Turtle]

I suppose there might be leakage - as from how and when we developed sociality and empathy towards other humans - such that we began to see other life not so much as objects or food, and especially when they became our companions and other such. Quite difficult, unless simply unaware, to not see other life as having lives of their own, living in communities, and all the rest, such that what gives us the right to interfere with their lives? The food aspect no doubt enables many to still see other life as 'lesser' and/or of lesser value than humans but that is changing. I spent several minutes today trying to capture a bee to let it outside. It would probably have died if I hadn't let it out so I tried my best - and succeeded. I have the same attitude to most other life too - their lives to live - but it is mostly a personal thing that one believes or doesn't. And much the same goes for causing other life any pain. I've always felt this way too, even as a child, and often wouldn't make friends with any who displayed any signs of such cruelty.

There is probably no objective reason why we should not harm other life, or even humans, but it probably says a lot as to what we might want humans to be as a species. Which is one reason I see for being so other than it does often cause one distress too - which it should in my view.

 

[Heyo]

But even from an evolutionary point of view, I don't really get why hurting animals would be wrong.

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?

Try hurting an animal before a potential mate and see how that affects your reproductive success.

 

[Nimos]

I suppose there might be leakage - as from how and when we developed sociality and empathy towards other humans - such that we began to see other life not so much as objects or food, and especially when they became our companions and other such. Quite difficult, unless simply unaware, to not see other life as having lives of their own, living in communities, and all the rest, such that what gives us the right to interfere with their lives? The food aspect no doubt enables many to still see other life as 'lesser' and/or of lesser value than humans but that is changing.

I agree with you and clearly empathy must have played apart. Which could explain why we would care a lot about animals that serve us, like cows, pigs, goats etc. But not so much about other predators that would eat us or compete against us. Obviously we have killed a lot of them during our history and are still doing it, but not because they are competitions as such, mostly due to stupidity and greed, yet a lot of people care to protect them.

I assume from what you are writing, that this empathy comes as a result of evolution, but do you think it's because its beneficial or just a result of the human brain being what it is or where do you think it comes from? Because from a pure evolutionary perspective, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?

From my part of the playing field: The boo-hurrah theory or if you like emotivism.
Boo-hurrah theory definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

 

[Mock Turtle]

I agree with you and clearly empathy must have played apart. Which could explain why we would care a lot about animals that serve us, like cows, pigs, goats etc. But not so much about other predators that would eat us or compete against us. Obviously we have killed a lot of them during our history and are still doing it, but not because they are competitions as such, mostly due to stupidity and greed, yet a lot of people care to protect them.

I assume from what you are writing, that this empathy comes as a result of evolution, but do you think it's because its beneficial or just a result of the human brain being what it is or where do you think it comes from? Because from a pure evolutionary perspective, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

I think the spread to many or even most other species probably comes about from more knowledge that we have now, and probably within my lifetime, after so many have studied various forms of animal behaviour and seen so much of us within them. Our fondness for pets might have done a lot here too, in that we are unlikely to want harm to these, and it just might not make much sense in having a cut-off as to which species we treat in particular ways. There probably is some logic here too, although it obviously still doesn't make sense to many.

 

[Augustus]

Try hurting an animal before a potential mate and see how that affects your reproductive success.

In many traditional societies, hurting/hunting a dangerous animal would help greatly.

In ancient Rome people killed animals for entertainment.

Fox hunting is still a popular pastime today.

In certain company it would harm you, in other company it could help.

 

[Nakosis]

This is a bit of a weird question or thought excise, which I think could be interesting to hear people thoughts about. All religious and non religious views.

It's not uncommon that words like evil and wrong gets thrown about in discussions, but what exactly make something wrong?

Let's take a simple example of "Setting fire to a living cat, just for doing it." and then ask the question why is that considered wrong?

Doing a bit of speculation here to just push it forward and getting to the point. So most people will say, because it causes the cat pain, but why is that considered wrong? What decide or why should we care whether the cat is in pain or not?

It might sound strange, because we are all or at least the majority in agreement that it is wrong. But doesn't really explain why that is the case, especially because we gladly slaughter and eat animals in the millions. Yet hurting them to much before we do, we see as wrong.

Atheists will obviously not be able to turn to a God, so would be interesting to hear what their thoughts are, and being one myself I will give my own view in just a second.

For religious people that might believe that God played a role, depending on what you believe, please elaborate on it, if you know your views are not widely known by others. So I will just use the big religions here as an example.

So if God decided that humans should feel wrong about such things, why do you think that God thought it was wrong, why should he care? And even if God cares for animals as his creation, he clearly didn't care enough for them to prevent humans from doing such things?

My own view is that, im not really sure, why it is wrong to burn a cat alive, when going all the way down the ladder, like why is causing pain wrong? why is killing someone wrong?

I mean, we all know it and live by it, yet I don't really know what the explanation is, expect our emotions and intelligence somehow makes it so, I would guess. But still that doesn't really explain why hurting a cat would be an issue.
It makes sense when talking other humans of the same race, yet we still go to war and torture, kill and treat each other quite bad in a lot of cases. I even think that a lot of humans are likely to treat animals better than other humans. Which might be, because we see them as lesser, pets or innocent beings, maybe?

But even from an evolutionary point of view, I don't really get why hurting animals would be wrong. I can understand why endless slaughtering might not be, as we could kill ourselves. But can't really figure out why we consider it wrong, besides again, our complex brain and emotions.

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?

What makes something good or bad is feelings.

Feelings are a subconscious process that causes a biochemical release that causes our consciousness to feel something. Because it is a subconscious process we don't have direct control over it.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If a cat got a lighter and was about to set you on fire, would you see anything wrong with that?

 

[Augustus]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If a cat got a lighter and was about to set you on fire, would you see anything wrong with that?

I'd be impressed it could operate a lighter without fingers and thumbs

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Let's take a simple example of "Setting fire to a living cat, just for doing it." and then ask the question why is that considered wrong?

Doing a bit of speculation here to just push it forward and getting to the point. So most people will say, because it causes the cat pain, but why is that considered wrong? What decide or why should we care whether the cat is in pain or not?

Most people who aren't psychopaths don't really need to sit around and debate why setting a living animal on fire is wrong. It's wrong because it's pure sadism, torture and cruelty inflicted on a sentient being. The end. Sometimes we must kill, such as for food or defense, but there's never a reason to go out of your way to torture a living being.

 

[1213]

...Let's take a simple example of "Setting fire to a living cat, just for doing it." and then ask the question why is that considered wrong?...

It is wrong, because it is not good.

Instead, test everything. Hold on to what is good, but keep away from every kind of evil.
First Epistle to the Thessalonians 5:21

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is a bit of a weird question or thought excise, which I think could be interesting to hear people thoughts about. All religious and non religious views.

It's not uncommon that words like evil and wrong gets thrown about in discussions, but what exactly make something wrong?

Let's take a simple example of "Setting fire to a living cat, just for doing it." and then ask the question why is that considered wrong?

Doing a bit of speculation here to just push it forward and getting to the point. So most people will say, because it causes the cat pain, but why is that considered wrong? What decide or why should we care whether the cat is in pain or not?

It might sound strange, because we are all or at least the majority in agreement that it is wrong. But doesn't really explain why that is the case, especially because we gladly slaughter and eat animals in the millions. Yet hurting them to much before we do, we see as wrong.

Atheists will obviously not be able to turn to a God, so would be interesting to hear what their thoughts are, and being one myself I will give my own view in just a second.

For religious people that might believe that God played a role, depending on what you believe, please elaborate on it, if you know your views are not widely known by others. So I will just use the big religions here as an example.

So if God decided that humans should feel wrong about such things, why do you think that God thought it was wrong, why should he care? And even if God cares for animals as his creation, he clearly didn't care enough for them to prevent humans from doing such things?

My own view is that, im not really sure, why it is wrong to burn a cat alive, when going all the way down the ladder, like why is causing pain wrong? why is killing someone wrong?

I mean, we all know it and live by it, yet I don't really know what the explanation is, expect our emotions and intelligence somehow makes it so, I would guess. But still that doesn't really explain why hurting a cat would be an issue.
It makes sense when talking other humans of the same race, yet we still go to war and torture, kill and treat each other quite bad in a lot of cases. I even think that a lot of humans are likely to treat animals better than other humans. Which might be, because we see them as lesser, pets or innocent beings, maybe?

But even from an evolutionary point of view, I don't really get why hurting animals would be wrong. I can understand why endless slaughtering might not be, as we could kill ourselves. But can't really figure out why we consider it wrong, besides again, our complex brain and emotions.

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?

Actually there is nothing wrong as strange as it may seem. I at times must remind myself that nature is not made for us, rather we are made for nature.

I think in view of actions, both benign and visceral, one ought to be cognizant of the fact that one day your the cat, another day your the mouse in this realm of existence.

Someday something is going to put an end to you, me, everything.

 

[Trailblazer]

My own view is that, im not really sure, why it is wrong to burn a cat alive, when going all the way down the ladder, like why is causing pain wrong? why is killing someone wrong?

But even from an evolutionary point of view, I don't really get why hurting animals would be wrong. I can understand why endless slaughtering might not be, as we could kill ourselves. But can't really figure out why we consider it wrong, besides again, our complex brain and emotions.

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?

Below are the reasons why I think we should be even kinder to animals than we are to other humans, because animals are completely devoid of speech thus they cannot complain to the government. This has nothing to do with whether we are a believer or an atheist, it is a human thing.

“Briefly, it is not only their fellow human beings that the beloved of God must treat with mercy and compassion, rather must they show forth the utmost loving-kindness to every living creature. For in all physical respects, and where the animal spirit is concerned, the selfsame feelings are shared by animal and man. Man hath not grasped this truth, however, and he believeth that physical sensations are confined to human beings, wherefore is he unjust to the animals, and cruel.

And yet in truth, what difference is there when it cometh to physical sensations? The feelings are one and the same, whether ye inflict pain on man or on beast. There is no difference here whatever. And indeed ye do worse to harm an animal, for man hath a language, he can lodge a complaint, he can cry out and moan; if injured he can have recourse to the authorities and these will protect him from his aggressor. But the hapless beast is mute, able neither to express its hurt nor take its case to the authorities. If a man inflict a thousand ills upon a beast, it can neither ward him off with speech nor hale him into court. Therefore is it essential that ye show forth the utmost consideration to the animal, and that ye be even kinder to him than to your fellow man.”

Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 158-159

 

[Trailblazer]

I spent several minutes today trying to capture a bee to let it outside. It would probably have died if I hadn't let it out so I tried my best - and succeeded. I have the same attitude to most other life too - their lives to live - but it is mostly a personal thing that one believes or doesn't.

Yes, I think it is mostly a personal thing, a feeling, an attitude.
We have a Tupperware container we keep handy on the table, in case a bee or a spider or a big mosquito shows up.
My husband knows how to capture them so they don't get hurt and then he releases them outside.

 

[Nimos]

Most people who aren't psychopaths don't really need to sit around and debate why setting a living animal on fire is wrong. It's wrong because it's pure sadism, torture and cruelty inflicted on a sentient being. The end. Sometimes we must kill, such as for food or defense, but there's never a reason to go out of your way to torture a living being.

It's not really about specifically setting an animal on fire or not. And im not saying or arguing against your reasons for why we consider it wrong, as I fully agree with them. But it doesn't explain why it is like that. Which is what im interested in.

If we turn it around and look at something like why does people fall in love? Its a lot easier to explain, first of all offsprings, protection, comfort etc. from a evolutionary point of view its very easy to find a lot of reasons for why animals or humans bind together.

But it is much more difficult to explain the other way around, why something is considered wrong in the first place. Because what you have done is simply assigning words to explain why you don't like it, not why it is wrong, if that make sense?

Even as you say sometimes we kill each other, animals etc. But in such cases as you point out, there can be a good explanation, whether one agree with them or not.

But for instance bullfighting, which to me is a horrible sport, yet those that like it due to traditions or whatever reason, think its perfectly fine as it gives them a lot of entertainment seeing a bull getting poked with spears etc. So might as well use that as an example, as I assume you consider that wrong as well? Yet its a lot more common than people randomly lighting cats of fire.

Would you say that all those people that enjoy that are psychopaths? or is it justified to treat a bull like that, because it is a sport or tradition? Hope that makes it a bit more clear what I mean.

 

[Nimos]

What makes something good or bad is feelings.

Feelings are a subconscious process that causes a biochemical release that causes our consciousness to feel something. Because it is a subconscious process we don't have direct control over it.

I agree, its not like we choose whether we like it or not. I think most people which doesn't suffer from a mental condition, do not like seeing others suffer whether they are humans or animals.

An it might simply be that these processes gets more evolved the more intelligent a species is. But still don't really know what the reason or benefit from a evolutionary point of view is (if any) or why it is so dominating in humans.

 

[Nimos]

Below are the reasons why I think we should be even kinder to animals than we are to other humans, because animals are completely devoid of speech thus they cannot complain to the government. This has nothing to do with whether we are a believer or an atheist, it is a human thing.

“Briefly, it is not only their fellow human beings that the beloved of God must treat with mercy and compassion, rather must they show forth the utmost loving-kindness to every living creature. For in all physical respects, and where the animal spirit is concerned, the selfsame feelings are shared by animal and man. Man hath not grasped this truth, however, and he believeth that physical sensations are confined to human beings, wherefore is he unjust to the animals, and cruel.

And yet in truth, what difference is there when it cometh to physical sensations? The feelings are one and the same, whether ye inflict pain on man or on beast. There is no difference here whatever. And indeed ye do worse to harm an animal, for man hath a language, he can lodge a complaint, he can cry out and moan; if injured he can have recourse to the authorities and these will protect him from his aggressor. But the hapless beast is mute, able neither to express its hurt nor take its case to the authorities. If a man inflict a thousand ills upon a beast, it can neither ward him off with speech nor hale him into court. Therefore is it essential that ye show forth the utmost consideration to the animal, and that ye be even kinder to him than to your fellow man.”

Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 158-159

I agree, but I think a lot might misunderstand what im asking, which is obviously my fault

As I see we have to go back far longer, back when people lived in tribes etc. I don't know it, but I don't get the impression or have read anything that people back then would hurt animals for fun either, but rather they would more likely worship them or thank them for "donating" their life to food, or maybe serve some form of ritual which were more out of respect than anything else. Might not be right, not that much into it, but that is the impression I have.

So at some point during humans evolutionary journey, we have developed a keen sense of empathy not only for our own species, but for all life generally speaking. And this feeling is clearly stronger with animals that we find attractive than those we don't. Most people wouldn't think twice slapping a fly, where it wouldn't even cross their mind to slap a kitten for instance.

Its not about all the reasons or emotions for why or how we ought to treat others, but rather why it is the case, if that makes sense?

It make sense when we look at humans isolated, its rather easy to explain why you would like to treat others with kindness, because there are a lot of benefits here. But an elephant for instance, doesn't care if you are kind to it or not, most likely it will attack you, if you got to close to it so its not beneficial in the same way as with humans. So neither them or us benefit from treating each other nice and I don't think an elephant or lion killing a human feel any form of emotional distress for doing so.

 

[Heyo]

Let's take a simple example of "Setting fire to a living cat, just for doing it." and then ask the question why is that considered wrong?

It's considered bad manners: