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Why is Quran the final word of God?

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
In Islamic belief, there came many Messengers before Muhammad. For example, after Abraham, Moses was sent.

Why did God send Moses after Abraham? Was not teaching of Abraham good enough? He taught oneness of God, did He not?

What happened that God decided not to send another Revelation, a Messenger with a Holy Book, after Quran?

What did happen specifically after Muhammad, that there are no more Messengers required?

I am more interested to know the logic behind this from a muslim point of view, supported by verses of Quran and hadithes.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In Islamic belief, there came many Messengers before Muhammad. For example, after Abraham, Moses was sent.

Why did God send Moses after Abraham? Was not teaching of Abraham good enough? He taught oneness of God, did He not?

What happened that God decided not to send another Revelation, a Messenger with a Holy Book, after Quran?

What did happen specifically after Muhammad, that there are no more Messengers required?

I am more interested to know the logic behind this from a muslim point of view, supported by verses of Quran and hadithes.

Salam

Messengers come in groups known as "The House" "The people of the House" "The family of the reminder" of that time.

The Quran talks about the last day, so the world is coming to an end. If the world is coming to an end, there will be no matter what a final Messenger.

Mohammad is not the final Messenger, he is the Final Nabi, which means recipient of a revelation to be revealed to humanity. The final revelation to humanity is Quran. The Final Messenger is the Mahdi.

Another way to phrase your question is to say, "How do we know Mohammad is the final Prophet and the Mahdi the final Messenger?"

To do that we must look at God's plan. The plan of God seemed with every founding Prophet, was that he was sent to his people and particularly, they were all "ummi" in the sense, they were raised and born in the central town of the towns they must warn. But God's plan was never with any Prophet, to make their religion forever and their teachings and authority, just local, and not spread.

It was supposed to be the people who receive the message that then help the succeeding Messengers (Awsiya/Successors to the founders) spread it to all humans.

A Prophet that is a not a Messenger is rare case, where a revelation is revealed without need of the message being emphasized either therein or clarified by that Prophet to people. A Messenger that is not a Prophet is rare case, and is the case of the 12 Imams, where they are entrusted to convey the clear message and revive the religion, but without a revelation from God.

Aside from this, Messengers weren't always present, but Guides always were. That is to say during time of Jesus to Mohammad, there was no Messenger from God, but there was a Guide and a witness, and that was a former Prophet and Messenger, Elyas.

There is always a Guide.

Not only that, but there is always a period of darkness from God manifesting miracles and clarifying the truth, these are known as to be "nights" and there is always periods where God did manifest through miracles and there is always a Guide that can manifest miracle be he hidden or manifest, but when the miracles are in the open and the truth is clear, it's known as "day".

God always rotates between these two cycles, because if he kept it with clear miracles all the time, people would be destroyed as they would have no rest from the truth and if they were in oppressive unjust state, they would be met with destruction like many destroyed nations and cities of the past.

When God appointed the successors of Mohammad, there was hostility, and to avoid catastrophe that is surely cannot be avoided if God determines it, he out of his wisdom, hid the final successor to Mohammad.

The Mahdi is yet to be a Messenger, but while, he is not that, he is not useless, but like the Cave, Khidr, Thal-Qarnain in Suratal Kahf, he is a hidden guide and acts and helps in mysterious ways. Aside from that, God only guides at the end through his guidance, and for every people there is a guide. While in the past, we can just go meet him and people took advantage of that with hostility towards the Guides and their followers, all to prevent God's Rule and Kingdom, we can ask God to make us meet him and we can ask when we meet him for God to allow to show us miracles. The Quran shows whether manifest or hidden, there always a Guide to show miracles and make us certain.

When he comes with the final Message, one of the plans, is that he has the Quran with the commentary of Ali. Imam Ali (as) kept track of where every verse is revealed. Today this can be put into a program (the dates of every verse), and we can even see a long with Ali's commentary, how the Quran was dynamically built.

Indeed the Quran was dynamically built, and it was not just for a temporary reason, but the Mahdi will make use of this commentary and reveal the true wonderous clear Quran that dark forces try to make ambiguous and hide it's bright proofs.

The sorcery is what makes Quran confusing to many otherwise it's a very clear book.

This plan, to make it not that the 12 Captains succeeding the founder to the ship of salvation, to be Anbiya, is so that the Quran is not disputed. It's not the case, that we have other claims of revelations from the 12 Imams which Muslims will say is not Quran even if they were on par and from God.

Another reason to seal revelations and protect the Quran this time, is because most of the battle for truth; lied in authority and interpretation. Even during the time of Anbiya of children of Israel - people relied on authorities not appointed by God to understand the teaching of Moses, and this is while God was revealing revelations, and they would rely on these so called scholars to know if a Prophet is true. As a result, they for example, denied Jesus over a trivial thing, that he had no father, and said you can't be linked to David on that. This is what despite his miracles and the high nature of the Gospels revealed.

The Quran is such that it became that it's not longer a big battle upon what revelation is from God - and what is corrupted and what is not, but it's on interpretation. The Mahdi thus is a plan for God - to be regarding manifesting the true interpretation of Quran and other holy books.

The Quran command us to seek the family of the reminder for knowledge of the religion and to seek interpretation from God's rope, and to use the Quran to dispel it's own ambiguities true, but also with the help of ahadiths and also with the help of the current guide of our time.

The family of Mohammad's authority is yet to be replaced brother and the battle for interpretation of Quran is not over.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Salam

Messengers come in groups known as "The House" "The people of the House" "The family of the reminder" of that time.

The Quran talks about the last day, so the world is coming to an end. If the world is coming to an end, there will be no matter what a final Messenger.

Mohammad is not the final Messenger, he is the Final Nabi, which means recipient of a revelation to be revealed to humanity. The final revelation to humanity is Quran. The Final Messenger is the Mahdi.

Another way to phrase your question is to say, "How do we know Mohammad is the final Prophet and the Mahdi the final Messenger?"

To do that we must look at God's plan. The plan of God seemed with every founding Prophet, was that he was sent to his people and particularly, they were all "ummi" in the sense, they were raised and born in the central town of the towns they must warn. But God's plan was never with any Prophet, to make their religion forever and their teachings and authority, just local, and not spread.

It was supposed to be the people who receive the message that then help the succeeding Messengers (Awsiya/Successors to the founders) spread it to all humans.

A Prophet that is a not a Messenger is rare case, where a revelation is revealed without need of the message being emphasized either therein or clarified by that Prophet to people. A Messenger that is not a Prophet is rare case, and is the case of the 12 Imams, where they are entrusted to convey the clear message and revive the religion, but without a revelation from God.

Aside from this, Messengers weren't always present, but Guides always were. That is to say during time of Jesus to Mohammad, there was no Messenger from God, but there was a Guide and a witness, and that was a former Prophet and Messenger, Elyas.

There is always a Guide.

Not only that, but there is always a period of darkness from God manifesting miracles and clarifying the truth, these are known as to be "nights" and there is always periods where God did manifest through miracles and there is always a Guide that can manifest miracle be he hidden or manifest, but when the miracles are in the open and the truth is clear, it's known as "day".

God always rotates between these two cycles, because if he kept it with clear miracles all the time, people would be destroyed as they would have no rest from the truth and if they were in oppressive unjust state, they would be met with destruction like many destroyed nations and cities of the past.

When God appointed the successors of Mohammad, there was hostility, and to avoid catastrophe that is surely cannot be avoided if God determines it, he out of his wisdom, hid the final successor to Mohammad.

The Mahdi is yet to be a Messenger, but while, he is not that, he is not useless, but like the Cave, Khidr, Thal-Qarnain in Suratal Kahf, he is a hidden guide and acts and helps in mysterious ways. Aside from that, God only guides at the end through his guidance, and for every people there is a guide. While in the past, we can just go meet him and people took advantage of that with hostility towards the Guides and their followers, all to prevent God's Rule and Kingdom, we can ask God to make us meet him and we can ask when we meet him for God to allow to show us miracles. The Quran shows whether manifest or hidden, there always a Guide to show miracles and make us certain.

When he comes with the final Message, one of the plans, is that he has the Quran with the commentary of Ali. Imam Ali (as) kept track of where every verse is revealed. Today this can be put into a program (the dates of every verse), and we can even see a long with Ali's commentary, how the Quran was dynamically built.

Indeed the Quran was dynamically built, and it was not just for a temporary reason, but the Mahdi will make use of this commentary and reveal the true wonderous clear Quran that dark forces try to make ambiguous and hide it's bright proofs.

The sorcery is what makes Quran confusing to many otherwise it's a very clear book.

This plan, to make it not that the 12 Captains succeeding the founder to the ship of salvation, to be Anbiya, is so that the Quran is not disputed. It's not the case, that we have other claims of revelations from the 12 Imams which Muslims will say is not Quran even if they were on par and from God.

Another reason to seal revelations and protect the Quran this time, is because most of the battle for truth; lied in authority and interpretation. Even during the time of Anbiya of children of Israel - people relied on authorities not appointed by God to understand the teaching of Moses, and this is while God was revealing revelations, and they would rely on these so called scholars to know if a Prophet is true. As a result, they for example, denied Jesus over a trivial thing, that he had no father, and said you can't be linked to David on that. This is what despite his miracles and the high nature of the Gospels revealed.

The Quran is such that it became that it's not longer a big battle upon what revelation is from God - and what is corrupted and what is not, but it's on interpretation. The Mahdi thus is a plan for God - to be regarding manifesting the true interpretation of Quran and other holy books.

The Quran command us to seek the family of the reminder for knowledge of the religion and to seek interpretation from God's rope, and to use the Quran to dispel it's own ambiguities true, but also with the help of ahadiths and also with the help of the current guide of our time.

The family of Mohammad's authority is yet to be replaced brother and the battle for interpretation of Quran is not over.
Salam and thank you for reply.

Will you be able to also provide some verses of Quran and Hadith that explains why Quran is final word of God? I am interested for proofs from the Islamic sources. Because the points that you made are not all agreed among the Muslims. For example you said Mahdi will be a Messenger, which most Sunnis do not accept. I am actually not debating here as whether or not Quran is the final word, but rather the reason for its finality if it is indeed the final, according to verses and hadithes, if these sources explains reasons for it at all.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam and thank you for reply.

Will you be able to also provide some verses of Quran and Hadith that explains why Quran is final word of God? I am interested for proofs from the Islamic sources. Because the points that you made are not all agreed among the Muslims. For example you said Mahdi will be a Messenger, which most Sunnis do not accept. I am actually not debating here as whether or not Quran is the final word, but rather the reason for its finality if it is indeed the final, according to verses and hadithes, if these sources explains reasons for it at all.

The Quranic verses are such that they all interpret each other. If you search for wisdom from Quran you will get it.

Original Istikhara of Quran was never about opening a physical book and coming to a random verse, it was about seeing with the heart some proof or sign in Quran, either a verse or combination that proves something.

In my post, there was a lot of things I stated, and I believe all that wisdom is found verified in Quran but Quran has it's own way of stating everything in a limited form. So if you need clarification of any of the points, just mention one a time, and I will show you proven in Quran.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
The Quranic verses are such that they all interpret each other. If you search for wisdom from Quran you will get it.

Original Istikhara of Quran was never about opening a physical book and coming to a random verse, it was about seeing with the heart some proof or sign in Quran, either a verse or combination that proves something.

In my post, there was a lot of things I stated, and I believe all that wisdom is found verified in Quran but Quran has it's own way of stating everything in a limited form. So if you need clarification of any of the points, just mention one a time, and I will show you proven in Quran.
I agree with you. I also see divinity of the Quran from its verses. But this is your own perception, and my own perception. Just because you see based on your own perception a wisdom in Quran, is not a proof that can be accepted scientifically. Historical methods of verifying authenticity of a text can be considered scientifically. In this thread, I'm discussing the reasons why the Quran is final word of God. A Christian can also same thing about the Bible, stating it contains so much wisdom, and so many fulfilled prophecies. Thus, would you accept bible as final?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Quran shows most of the Bible is from God and exactly how. It also shows some parts of it are corrupted and shows exactly where and how.

The Christian sees through the light from God parts of the Bible to be from God, he never fully verifies it all. This is what I'm talking about, I'm talking about to the extent no verse is trivial.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...
What happened that God decided not to send another Revelation, a Messenger with a Holy Book, after Quran?

What did happen specifically after Muhammad, that there are no more Messengers required?

Maybe Quran was given because people didn’t believe Jesus, to remind that we should believe Jesus, as said in here:

…The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah … …believe in Allah and His messengers. ...
Surat An-Nisā' 4:171
Surah An-Nisa [4:171]

All the God's prophets seem to be sent to remind what was said.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
In Islamic belief, there came many Messengers before Muhammad. For example, after Abraham, Moses was sent.

Why did God send Moses after Abraham? Was not teaching of Abraham good enough? He taught oneness of God, did He not?

What happened that God decided not to send another Revelation, a Messenger with a Holy Book, after Quran?

What did happen specifically after Muhammad, that there are no more Messengers required?

I am more interested to know the logic behind this from a muslim point of view, supported by verses of Quran and hadithes.

I believe there didn't need to be another message after the one Jesus gave but I believe what God saw was that enmity with the Jews would make a Jewish message unacceptable so He decided to give them an Arab message.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The Quran shows most of the Bible is from God and exactly how. It also shows some parts of it are corrupted and shows exactly where and how.

The Christian sees through the light from God parts of the Bible to be from God, he never fully verifies it all. This is what I'm talking about, I'm talking about to the extent no verse is trivial.

I believe that is a false interpretation.

I believe a Christian such as I see all the Bible and the Qu'ran through the guidance of the Holy Spirit which you do not have.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Maybe Quran was given because people didn’t believe Jesus, to remind that we should believe Jesus, as said in here:

…The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah … …believe in Allah and His messengers. ...
Surat An-Nisā' 4:171
Surah An-Nisa [4:171]

All the God's prophets seem to be sent to remind what was said.

I believe it is highly likely that the word "but" is not in the original Arabic.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe that is a false interpretation.

I believe a Christian such as I see all the Bible and the Qu'ran through the guidance of the Holy Spirit which you do not have.

That's fine, we all have our own personal views and testimonies.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
The Quran shows most of the Bible is from God and exactly how. It also shows some parts of it are corrupted and shows exactly where and how.

The Christian sees through the light from God parts of the Bible to be from God, he never fully verifies it all. This is what I'm talking about, I'm talking about to the extent no verse is trivial.
The Quran does not say any part of Bible text is corrupted, and it does not show anything in the Bible is corrupted. But it shows those parts of the Bible which has been misinterpreted. There is no conflict between the Quran and the Bible.
Quran in many instances is correcting misinterpretations.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Quran does not say any part of Bible text is corrupted, and it does not show anything in the Bible is corrupted. But it shows those parts of the Bible which has been misinterpreted. There is no conflict between the Quran and the Bible.
Quran in many instances is correcting misinterpretations.

What about the Story of Saul? What about the family of Moses and family of Aaron being one family, and the general concept of the family of the reminder in Quran?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
What about the Story of Saul? What about the family of Moses and family of Aaron being one family, and the general concept of the family of the reminder in Quran?
In some cases, the Quran is giving a different aspect of the stories. You have to quote a verse from the Quran, and a verse from Bible to show they contradict.
But even regarding Isaq and Ishmael being the son of Abraham who was to be sacrificed, islam says it was Ishmael, and bible says it was Isaq. but how about both to be correct? Bible is giving the story about isaq, and Quran giving story about Ismael. How about that, Abraham was willing to sacrifice both sons?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
In Islamic belief, there came many Messengers before Muhammad. For example, after Abraham, Moses was sent.

Why did God send Moses after Abraham? Was not teaching of Abraham good enough? He taught oneness of God, did He not?

What happened that God decided not to send another Revelation, a Messenger with a Holy Book, after Quran?

What did happen specifically after Muhammad, that there are no more Messengers required?

I am more interested to know the logic behind this from a muslim point of view, supported by verses of Quran and hadithes.
I don’t think it is. God is not silent. God is always speaking to those who will listen.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To understand God's plan and wisdom with sealing with the family of Mohammad and ending revelations with Quran you have to understand Quran and reality of the world and you have to see the promises and warnings regarding the Mahdi in Quran.

This one is a holistic view, it's not just one verse that will tell you. All the verse of sealing Prophets says in this regard, is that God is Wise and hence there is wisdom as to why. To see that wisdom, you have to understand Quran holistically.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In some cases, the Quran is giving a different aspect of the stories. You have to quote a verse from the Quran, and a verse from Bible to show they contradict.
But even regarding Isaq and Ishmael being the son of Abraham who was to be sacrificed, islam says it was Ishmael, and bible says it was Isaq. but how about both to be correct? Bible is giving the story about isaq, and Quran giving story about Ismael. How about that, Abraham was willing to sacrifice both sons?

In the Torah, Saul turns evil and is replaced by David. This is opposite to what Quran says about him and about all chosen ones being immune to becoming evil, while they may slip, God knows they will return to the straight path, and hence, are chosen by him as he knows what is before them and after them, while everyone else but God's elite, their future is unknown. That and the covenant to the family of Aaron was broken per the Torah and God changes his mind and even Aaron does a major evil along with his sister Mariam, but Quran shows, Moses and Aaron and their family members like David and Solomon who are from Aaron's offspring, are on par with Moses, just as Joseph is on par with Abraham. That, and it says "these Messengers" after which shows Talut (Saul) is a Messenger.

The whole purpose of all the verses devoted about Abraham's family was not about Arabs or Jews being special in blood, but it was to emphasize on the chosen from their offspring, and the divinely chosen family. Aaron and his righteous offspring were chosen similarly, and it's obviously linked to this discussion.

Quran disagrees that Aaron and his family, disobeyed God and that God changed his mind regarding the covenant to them as in the Torah.

These are some disagreements. There are of course more.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
New The Quran shows most of the Bible is from God and exactly how. It also shows some parts of it are corrupted and shows exactly where and how
How then, do you know that the Quran isn't corrupted as well?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How then, do you know that the Quran isn't corrupted as well?

Quran iterates itself and means different things to different people. No one knows it's full interpretation but God and the firmly rooted in knowledge which are the chosen guides and Fatima.

That said, you can get to a level where you verify every verse to be a key component in the building of Islam, Quran and the way it compliments the Sunnah and vice versa the way the Sunnah compliments the Quran.

Unfortunately, I can't describe witnessing it's doors opening other doors nature, and it's perpetual renewing of itself. But in theory, a corrupted verse would be a verse that doesn't add much or isn't significant in this opening portals to portals, and safeguarding each other and contextualizing each other nature of every verse of the Quran.

This is what most of Quran appears to be in the beginning to the novice, repeated iterations and summaries of the Torah and Gospels. But once you become acquainted with it and are guided by it, and you keep renewing a whole new Quran that you kind of forget what you thought of the Quran in the past, because it's a whole new level. It's this amazing guidance where Quran never get's old and where if you seek guidance regarding any matter for choice, you can find a proof of it in Quran and sign for it, that to me it's most potent miracle.

Eloquence, we can't predict the highest human potential of that, yes Quran is the highest in eloquence, but that's not it's primary proof unless you are very good at detecting this. The proof is this bright signs and light that guides new light and the way the true hadiths compliment the Quran, there is nothing like it.

And the Quran if you read it, it flows, but it's also if you read, you know it was dynamically built over time, over 23 years. How this happened and was possible, itself was a miracle, which is why people who recognize this among linguistics and academics often resort to that Mohammad had to be a made up character. However, historically, this is impossible. That and Quran though was revealed in speech and orally, flows, textually in a very calculative way.

There are also many eloquence signs, and every time it's more better to say something in one way over the other, it says in the best way.

That and it's guidance is such that it points to the proper structure of guidance so much so it proves no doubt there would be a reminder and family of the reminder as a rope of God, that even if say, Mohammad didn't know or was in doubt, he would've sought guidance from these chosen guides, but no doubt in my mind, the family of Taha and Yaseen is the final family of guidance and the final trial.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
In the Torah, Saul turns evil and is replaced by David. This is opposite to what Quran says about him and about all chosen ones being immune to becoming evil, while they may slip, God knows they will return to the straight path, and hence, are chosen by him as he knows what is before them and after them, while everyone else but God's elite, their future is unknown. That and the covenant to the family of Aaron was broken per the Torah and God changes his mind and even Aaron does a major evil along with his sister Mariam, but Quran shows, Moses and Aaron and their family members like David and Solomon who are from Aaron's offspring, are on par with Moses, just as Joseph is on par with Abraham. That, and it says "these Messengers" after which shows Talut (Saul) is a Messenger.

The whole purpose of all the verses devoted about Abraham's family was not about Arabs or Jews being special in blood, but it was to emphasize on the chosen from their offspring, and the divinely chosen family. Aaron and his righteous offspring were chosen similarly, and it's obviously linked to this discussion.

Quran disagrees that Aaron and his family, disobeyed God and that God changed his mind regarding the covenant to them as in the Torah.

These are some disagreements. There are of course more.
Even in the Quran, in some verses Muhammad confesses His sins, and asks God to forgive Him. These verses, although it appears Muhammad has sinned, in reality He did not, but since He represents His people, just as a King who represents His people, He is asking forgiveness for His community, using an indirect mode. It has a wisdom. It is meant to teach His community to ask forgiveness from God, and be humble towards God. Due to God's mercy, He does not wish to directly rebuke the community of believers, so, instead Muhammad is addressed as one who sinned. Bible, likewise, follows same logic in the cases you have referred.
 
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