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Why is morality a problem?

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Until the OT is scrapped then there are those who will consider such atrosities to be moral
Yikes! A lot of people believe the OT (and its horrific passages of genocide and sex slavery) is part of the inerrant word of God. We are doomed!!
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
The trouble is establishing tangible harms. Harms should be able to be demonstrated regardless of what anyone thinks about them. Which is a lot more difficult than it sounds, for the same reasons as the last post.
Good point. I would like to explore this point more. Perhaps I'll create a thread about it.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
This also brings about another question, is there a universal morality? In the definition of morality; "a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society."

Morality is generally decided based on the society in which you live. So what one group sees as moral another may see it as immoral and vice versa.
I had a sociology instructor in college who taught that murder is OK in societies having that as the norm. I was horrified. Should I be horrified by this idea?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Some seem to think there is no such thing as objective morality because no one can agree. Does this mean laws are immoral and that we should not have laws? (since they are arbitrary and promote the moral views of some but not others).

But can we agree on enough? Things such as: murder, stealing, rape, racism, phobias against various groups of people. Is there really any controversy about these?
We get scared for our children if pedophiles lurk around our children's school, or children's playground or parks. Is that considered a phobia against a group of people?
Some women are afraid that the man they are thinking of marrying may be homosexual. Is that considered a phobia against a group of people?
Some people are angry that people think it is okay to abort the growing fetus in their body. Is that considered a phobia against a group of people?
 
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tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Laws are tools of diffusion and enforcement of political will.

They fulfill a necessary role. It just happens that this role has no moral significance, despite common misunderstandings to the contrary.
Interesting perspective which I hadn't thought of before. That laws are political, not moral.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Don't remind me, I was trying to enjoy my life in a bubble. :)
  1. I have not committed sin.
  2. I have not committed robbery with violence.
  3. I have not stolen.
  4. I have not slain men or women.
  5. I have not stolen food.
  6. I have not swindled offerings.
  7. I have not stolen from God/Goddess.
  8. I have not told lies.
  9. I have not carried away food.
  10. I have not cursed.
  11. I have not closed my ears to truth.
  12. I have not committed adultery.
  13. I have not made anyone cry.
  14. I have not felt sorrow without reason.
  15. I have not assaulted anyone.
  16. I am not deceitful.
  17. I have not stolen anyone’s land.
  18. I have not been an eavesdropper.
  19. I have not falsely accused anyone.
  20. I have not been angry without reason.
  21. I have not seduced anyone’s wife.
  22. I have not polluted myself.
  23. I have not terrorized anyone.
  24. I have not disobeyed the Law.
  25. I have not been exclusively angry.
  26. I have not cursed God/Goddess.
  27. I have not behaved with violence.
  28. I have not caused disruption of peace.
  29. I have not acted hastily or without thought.
  30. I have not overstepped my boundaries of concern.
  31. I have not exaggerated my words when speaking.
  32. I have not worked evil.
  33. I have not used evil thoughts, words or deeds.
  34. I have not polluted the water.
  35. I have not spoken angrily or arrogantly.
  36. I have not cursed anyone in thought, word or deeds.
  37. I have not placed myself on a pedestal.
  38. I have not stolen what belongs to God/Goddess.
  39. I have not stolen from or disrespected the deceased.
  40. I have not taken food from a child.
  41. I have not acted with insolence.
  42. I have not destroyed property belonging to God/Goddess.
Many years before Moses...
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
But can we agree on enough? Things such as: murder,

Not really, because(as they say) the devil is in the details. "Murder" is a great example.

There's a technical definition for the word, "extralegal homicide". But that's not very clear, people often have very different ideas about which laws should be followed. And to what degree.

I'm a hardcore prolifer. I oppose the abortion of a healthy fetal human from a healthy mother. But here in the USA it's legal, to a degree, so it doesn't qualify as murder. As long as you consider SCOTUS rulings the law. I don't, particularly, although I recognize that they make decisions enforced by the government. Such as DreddScot and Citizens United, both of which I consider travesties of justice.

My point is this. We can all agree that murder is immoral, but unless we agree on which killings are murder the agreement is utterly meaningless.
Tom
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
  1. I have not committed sin.
  2. I have not committed robbery with violence.
  3. I have not stolen.
  4. I have not slain men or women.
  5. I have not stolen food.
  6. I have not swindled offerings.
  7. I have not stolen from God/Goddess.
  8. I have not told lies.
  9. I have not carried away food.
  10. I have not cursed.
  11. I have not closed my ears to truth.
  12. I have not committed adultery.
  13. I have not made anyone cry.
  14. I have not felt sorrow without reason.
  15. I have not assaulted anyone.
  16. I am not deceitful.
  17. I have not stolen anyone’s land.
  18. I have not been an eavesdropper.
  19. I have not falsely accused anyone.
  20. I have not been angry without reason.
  21. I have not seduced anyone’s wife.
  22. I have not polluted myself.
  23. I have not terrorized anyone.
  24. I have not disobeyed the Law.
  25. I have not been exclusively angry.
  26. I have not cursed God/Goddess.
  27. I have not behaved with violence.
  28. I have not caused disruption of peace.
  29. I have not acted hastily or without thought.
  30. I have not overstepped my boundaries of concern.
  31. I have not exaggerated my words when speaking.
  32. I have not worked evil.
  33. I have not used evil thoughts, words or deeds.
  34. I have not polluted the water.
  35. I have not spoken angrily or arrogantly.
  36. I have not cursed anyone in thought, word or deeds.
  37. I have not placed myself on a pedestal.
  38. I have not stolen what belongs to God/Goddess.
  39. I have not stolen from or disrespected the deceased.
  40. I have not taken food from a child.
  41. I have not acted with insolence.
  42. I have not destroyed property belonging to God/Goddess.
Many years before Moses...
Interesting and useful list.

I can agree with most except those about Gods; can't steal from someone who doesn't exist. What is the source of this list?
 

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
I like your graded approach. But does this mean that we should not have laws against "smaller" crimes, because such laws will be arbitrary (and therefore, I suppose, unjust to some)?

And do we still have traffic laws? (If not, I'm gonna quit driving.)

They are not arbitrary there is a reason for them, just not moral reasons. I do not think that, on a whim one day, they decided to set the speed limit to 55mph just because. A law preventing you from hitchhiking on the NYS thruway is not based in morality, is not arbitrary and is there for safety. Both have more to do with public safety than morality.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Some seem to think there is no such thing as objective morality because no one can agree. Does this mean laws are immoral and that we should not have laws? (since they are arbitrary and promote the moral views of some but not others).

But can we agree on enough? Things such as: murder, stealing, rape, racism, phobias against various groups of people. Is there really any controversy about these?
I have recently changed my mind on the objectivity of morals and am now convinced that some moral values are objective. I'm not sure all or even many of our values can be shown to be objectively moral but equality is an objective moral value and basis for many other values.
So, from your list, I think I can prove to any rational person that racism is objectively immoral.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
This also brings about another question, is there a universal morality? In the definition of morality; "a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society."

Morality is generally decided based on the society in which you live. So what one group sees as moral another may see it as immoral and vice versa.


More or less my first post in different words

Everyone knows the difference between right and wrong. Problem is different people have different views as to what represents right and wrong.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Both have more to do with public safety than morality.
So laws against violence and theft are similar to traffic laws; they concern public safety and well-being.

And I guess in a way this is my point. We can agree on issues of public safety and well-being. In reading about moral philosophy, this topic is usually considered part of moral philosophy.
 

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
I had a sociology instructor in college who taught that murder is OK in societies having that as the norm. I was horrified. Should I be horrified by this idea?

In some South American countries violence against women is OK, especially if machismo is involved ..... that is horrifying to me and that fact that it is legal there does not make it any less horrifying to me.
 
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