• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why is Jesus worshiped?

Teritos

Active Member
If Jesus is not God, why was He worshiped even as an infant? He is worshiped very often in the NT, but he never says "Stop worshiping me, I am not God". The Greek word clearly refers to worship. The word proskyneo also once refers to Peter, who was worshipped and then immediately said "Stop, I'm only a man too!"
Acts of the Apostles 10:25-26
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter helped him up, saying, “Stand up; I, too, am just a man.”


The word also once refers to an angel who then immediately said, "Stop worshiping me, worship only God!"
Revelation 22:8-9
I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours. Worship God!”
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
If Jesus is not God, why was He worshiped even as an infant? He is worshiped very often in the NT, but he never says "Stop worshiping me, I am not God". The Greek word clearly refers to worship. The word proskyneo also once refers to Peter, who was worshipped and then immediately said "Stop, I'm only a man too!"
Acts of the Apostles 10:25-26
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter helped him up, saying, “Stand up; I, too, am just a man.”


The word also once refers to an angel who then immediately said, "Stop worshiping me, worship only God!"
Revelation 22:8-9
I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours. Worship God!”

Cause some believe an incarnation is the same as the thing one is incarnated from.

Some religious believe both are the same and others believe it's more looking in the mirror and knowing a reflection isn't actually the person it reflects.

Scripture uses from/of/as/in to describe how Jesus relates to God but never is to describe that he is god.

Mainly, they don't see the incarnation separate than the source.

It doesn't matter either way. It's still worshiping god.
 
Last edited:

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
If Jesus is not God, why was He worshiped even as an infant?

You know, he wasn't the only person worshipped as a baby in history. The Dalai Lama will choose a baby as the reincarnation of Buddha, and sometimes babies with certain birth defects will be worshipped as incarnations of certain gods. These are just a couple of modern examples of this happening.

229997-7.jpg


So what makes Jesus special in this regard? Why does it matter if anyone worshipped him as a baby at all? Why does it matter that he didn't deny being god?
 

tigger2

Active Member
If Jesus is not God, why was He worshiped even as an infant? He is worshiped very often in the NT, but he never says "Stop worshiping me, I am not God". The Greek word clearly refers to worship. The word proskyneo also once refers to Peter, who was worshipped and then immediately said "Stop, I'm only a man too!"
Acts of the Apostles 10:25-26
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter helped him up, saying, “Stand up; I, too, am just a man.”


The word also once refers to an angel who then immediately said, "Stop worshiping me, worship only God!"
Revelation 22:8-9
I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours. Worship God!”
...........................................
The Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 trinitarian United Bible Societies’ A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: “[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another’s feet.”

Even the trinitarian W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:

“PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26.”

“Obeisance,” of course, shows “respect, submission, or reverence” - Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.

Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:
“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]” - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.

Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible tells us:

“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …” - p. 941, vol. 4.

The Hebrew word most often translated “worship” is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’” And,
“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).” - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.

Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:
“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.”

The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated “prostrated himself before” at Matt. 18:26 NASB, even though the KJV uses “worship” there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant “worships” [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,

“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator.”

At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people “worship before thy feet.” - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo! The ASV again adds this footnote: “The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature, or the Creator.”

So we see that the king of Israel, for example, could receive proskuneo or shachah in his role as a representative of a higher authority (Jehovah), or he could receive it in recognition of his own earthly position of authority that God allowed him to have. For example, at 2 Sam. 14:22 Joab “worships” ‘my Lord’ (King David). The Hebrew word shachah translated in most places in the Bible as “worship” is here translated “did obeisance” in the RSV. In the Greek Septuagint the word used is proskuneo. So, in spite of their both sharing the same fleshly human nature, one gave the other proskuneo or shachah!

We see the same thing at 1 Kings 1:16, 31 when Bathsheba gives shachah to her husband and king, David. Not only does the Septuagint use proskuneo for these verses (3 Kings 1:16, 31 in Sept.), but at verses 21 and 31 she calls David, “The Lord of me” (“My Lord”).

Angels, when acting as representatives of Jehovah and speaking his words, could properly receive proskuneo as representatives for a superior authority.

Gen. 18:2 uses shachah to describe what Abraham did to the angels (p. 37, New Bible Dictionary, second ed., 1982, Tyndale House Publ.) who came to him, and what Lot did to two of those same angels (shachah) is described at Gen. 19:1 (Also see Unger and White, pp. 7 and 482.) Proskuneo is also used in these two scriptures in the Septuagint. Also see Numbers 22:31: Balaam “worshiped” (proskuneo - Sept. and shachah [”fell flat” - KJV] - Hebrew OT) the ANGEL and the angel accepted it! (Unlike Rev. 19:10 and 22:8, 9.)

“The angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah/Yahweh], sometimes ‘the angel of God’ or ‘my (or ‘his’) angel,’ is represented in Scripture as a heavenly being sent by God to deal with men as his personal spokesman. In many passages he is virtually identified with God and speaks not merely in the name of God but as God in the first person singular.” - New Bible Dictionary, p. 38.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
If Jesus is not God, why was He worshiped even as an infant? He is worshiped very often in the NT, but he never says "Stop worshiping me, I am not God". The Greek word clearly refers to worship. The word proskyneo also once refers to Peter, who was worshipped and then immediately said "Stop, I'm only a man too!"
Acts of the Apostles 10:25-26
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter helped him up, saying, “Stand up; I, too, am just a man.”


The word also once refers to an angel who then immediately said, "Stop worshiping me, worship only God!"
Revelation 22:8-9
I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours. Worship God!”

Why do people ever do the things they do? Even if he was and is worshipped by some, doesn't necessarily make it right.
 

Teritos

Active Member
...........................................
The Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 trinitarian United Bible Societies’ A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: “[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another’s feet.”

Even the trinitarian W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:

“PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26.”

“Obeisance,” of course, shows “respect, submission, or reverence” - Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.

Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:
“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]” - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.

Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible tells us:

“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …” - p. 941, vol. 4.

The Hebrew word most often translated “worship” is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’” And,
“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).” - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.

Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:
“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.”

The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated “prostrated himself before” at Matt. 18:26 NASB, even though the KJV uses “worship” there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant “worships” [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,

“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator.”

At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people “worship before thy feet.” - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo! The ASV again adds this footnote: “The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature, or the Creator.”

So we see that the king of Israel, for example, could receive proskuneo or shachah in his role as a representative of a higher authority (Jehovah), or he could receive it in recognition of his own earthly position of authority that God allowed him to have. For example, at 2 Sam. 14:22 Joab “worships” ‘my Lord’ (King David). The Hebrew word shachah translated in most places in the Bible as “worship” is here translated “did obeisance” in the RSV. In the Greek Septuagint the word used is proskuneo. So, in spite of their both sharing the same fleshly human nature, one gave the other proskuneo or shachah!

We see the same thing at 1 Kings 1:16, 31 when Bathsheba gives shachah to her husband and king, David. Not only does the Septuagint use proskuneo for these verses (3 Kings 1:16, 31 in Sept.), but at verses 21 and 31 she calls David, “The Lord of me” (“My Lord”).

Angels, when acting as representatives of Jehovah and speaking his words, could properly receive proskuneo as representatives for a superior authority.

Gen. 18:2 uses shachah to describe what Abraham did to the angels (p. 37, New Bible Dictionary, second ed., 1982, Tyndale House Publ.) who came to him, and what Lot did to two of those same angels (shachah) is described at Gen. 19:1 (Also see Unger and White, pp. 7 and 482.) Proskuneo is also used in these two scriptures in the Septuagint. Also see Numbers 22:31: Balaam “worshiped” (proskuneo - Sept. and shachah [”fell flat” - KJV] - Hebrew OT) the ANGEL and the angel accepted it! (Unlike Rev. 19:10 and 22:8, 9.)

“The angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah/Yahweh], sometimes ‘the angel of God’ or ‘my (or ‘his’) angel,’ is represented in Scripture as a heavenly being sent by God to deal with men as his personal spokesman. In many passages he is virtually identified with God and speaks not merely in the name of God but as God in the first person singular.” - New Bible Dictionary, p. 38.
You use Revelation 3:9 to prove that the Greek word does not necessarily mean worship but can also be interpreted as a sign of respect. In fact, I agree with you, you are right. But interestingly, the Greek word "proskyneo" has 24 different forms in the NT. The one form in Revelation 3:9 is proskynēsousin, and here I agree with you as I said, the word doesn't have to mean worship, it can just mean some kind of obeisance. But let's look at the 2 other forms that appear in Acts of the Apostles 10:25-26 and Revelation 22:8-9 where Peter and the angel are worshiped and immediately stopped the worship. The form in relation to Peter is prosekynēsen and the other form in relation to the angel is proskynēsai. It is clear in view of their reactions that these two words must be understood as worship, otherwise they would not have reacted in this way. Now let's look at where else the first word prosekynēsen appears in the NT, and indeed the word is also applied to Jesus in John 9:38 and Mark 5:6. Jesus is worshiped and does not reject that worship as Peter or the angel did. The second word proskynēsai is also applied to Jesus in Matthew 2:2, and again this worship is not stopped. Jesus is God.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
If Jesus is not God, why was He worshiped even as an infant? He is worshiped very often in the NT, but he never says "Stop worshiping me, I am not God". The Greek word clearly refers to worship. The word proskyneo also once refers to Peter, who was worshipped and then immediately said "Stop, I'm only a man too!"
Acts of the Apostles 10:25-26
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter helped him up, saying, “Stand up; I, too, am just a man.”


The word also once refers to an angel who then immediately said, "Stop worshiping me, worship only God!"
Revelation 22:8-9
I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours. Worship God!”
How about the parts where he is worshiped in the Bible? Can we have examples?
 

tigger2

Active Member
You use Revelation 3:9 to prove that the Greek word does not necessarily mean worship but can also be interpreted as a sign of respect. In fact, I agree with you, you are right. But interestingly, the Greek word "proskyneo" has 24 different forms in the NT. The one form in Revelation 3:9 is proskynēsousin, and here I agree with you as I said, the word doesn't have to mean worship, it can just mean some kind of obeisance. But let's look at the 2 other forms that appear in Acts of the Apostles 10:25-26 and Revelation 22:8-9 where Peter and the angel are worshiped and immediately stopped the worship. The form in relation to Peter is prosekynēsen and the other form in relation to the angel is proskynēsai. It is clear in view of their reactions that these two words must be understood as worship, otherwise they would not have reacted in this way. Now let's look at where else the first word prosekynēsen appears in the NT, and indeed the word is also applied to Jesus in John 9:38 and Mark 5:6. Jesus is worshiped and does not reject that worship as Peter or the angel did. The second word proskynēsai is also applied to Jesus in Matthew 2:2, and again this worship is not stopped. Jesus is God.
..............................................
Proskuneo, like other NT Greek words, has various forms which merely show an additional understanding of the word. These would include “I worship,” “I worshiped,” “He worships,” “He worshiped,” “They …,” etc. Notice how the some of the various forms are translated below. They do not distinguish highest level of worship (for God alone) from lower forms.

Proskuneo


Matthew 2:2: "east, and are come to worship him."
Matthew 2:8: "him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him"
Matthew 2:11: "mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their"
Matthew 4:9: "thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."
Matthew 4:10: "Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and"
Matthew 8:2: "behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if"
Matthew 9:18: "a certain ruler, and worshiped him, saying, My daughter"
Matthew 14:33: "the ship came and worshiped him, saying, Of a truth thou art"
Matthew 15:25: "Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help"
Matthew 18:26: "servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience"
Matthew 20:20: "with her sons, worshiping him, and desiring a certain thing of"
Matthew 28:9: "him by the feet, and worshiped him."
Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him, they worshiped him: but some doubted."
Mark 5:6: "afar off, he ran and worshiped him,"
Mark 15:19: "and bowing their knees worshiped him."
Luke 4:7: "If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine."
Luke 4:8: "Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and"
Luke 24:52: "And they worshiped him, and returned to Jerusalem with"
John 4:20: "Our fathers worshiped in this mountain; and ye"
John 4:20: "place where men ought to worship."
John 4:21: "mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father."
John 4:22: "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what"
John 4:22: "we know what we worship: for salvation is of"
John 4:23: "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit"
John 4:23: "seeketh such to worship him."
John 4:24: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in"
John 4:24: "they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
John 9:38: "Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him."
John 12:20: "among them that came up to worship at the feast:"
Acts 7:43: "figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away"
Acts 8:27: "and had come to"
Acts 8:27: "and had come to"
Acts 10:25: "and fell down at his feet, and worshipped"
Acts 24:11: "twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship."
1 Corinthians 14:25: "falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God"
Hebrews 1:6: "let all the angels of God worship him."
Hebrews 11:21: "sons of Joseph; and worshiped, leaning upon the top of his"
Revelation 3:9: "to come and worship before thy feet, and"
Revelation 4:10: "him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth forever and ever,"
Revelation 5:14: "four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth forever and ever."
Revelation 7:11: "their faces, and worshiped God,"
Revelation 9:20: "of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols"
Revelation 11:1: "the altar, and them that worship therein."
Revelation 11:16: "fell upon their faces, and worshiped God,"
Revelation 13:4: "And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the"
Revelation 13:4: "unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who"
Revelation 13:8: "upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not"
Revelation 13:12: "them which dwell therein to worship the first beast,"
Revelation 13:15: "and cause that as many as would not worship the image"
Revelation 14:7: "judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth,"


Strongs's #4352: proskuneo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools
 

Teritos

Active Member
They do not distinguish highest level of worship (for God alone) from lower forms.
Apparently they do make a difference, or why did the angel and Peter reject worship? And just in their situations, other forms of the word were used. There are also not few forms of the word, there are 24 and the Greek language has only 8 pronouns and only 7 tenses. So to blame the many forms only on the pronouns and tenses make little sense.
 
Last edited:

tigger2

Active Member
Apparently they do make a difference, or why did the angel and Peter reject worship? And just in their situations, other forms of the word were used. There are also not few forms of the word, there are 24 and the Greek language has only 8 pronouns and only 7 tenses. So to blame the many forms only on the pronouns and tenses make little sense.

"These would include 'I worship,' 'I worshiped,' 'He worships,' 'He worshiped,' 'They …,' etc."

If you would actually investigate, you would find there are many more forms for verbs.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I don't think you believe in the trinity since you call yourself a monotheist. Probably you don't believe that Jesus is God, then. I don't believe in those things, either.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Yes you are correct. I do not believe in the trinity. Im a strict monotheist.

But Christians is also monotheists. But they are not strict monotheists
 
Top