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Featured Why Is Jesus As A Sacrifice OK?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Did you miss the part where it says "He shall see his seed [children], he shall prolong his days"? No-one is being physically sacrificed here. All that's being said here is that HaShem desired to make the people sick so that they would turn to Him again and repent. Here is the verse from a Jewish translation:

    And the L-rd wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and G-d's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

    The soul needs to repent for all it's done. This is about Israel's transgressions and Israel interceding on behalf of transgressing nations. Israel needs to repent.

    Also, if, as you believe, this referred to messiah, the messiah is clearly alive a while and has children and will prosper. Not your man.
     
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  2. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    That is where your interpretation and ours differs 180 degrees. Christ was sacrificed, and his spiritual children are the ones who shall inherit the earth.

    In other words, your beliefs and ours are incompatible. Nonetheless, the scriptures clearly says the following:
    10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.​
    If you can read then is the question here.
    End of argument, end of story.

    You have the right to your unbelief, and we have the right to our beliefs. No discussions will solve this disagreement.

     
  3. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Have fun with your Christian mistranslations.
     
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  4. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    We will for it is the Gospel of Salvation through Christ, and no other name provides salvation. :)
     
  5. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Salvation from what?
     
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  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Firstly i don't agree with sacrifice; my point of contention is the faulty reading of the Tanakh.
    So instead of Yeshua Elohim (Isaiah 52:10) allowing himself to be put to death; you want God to have premeditated murdering Israel... :eek:

    Plus we can not show most of the things happening to Israel; yet we can show each for Yeshua.
    Have you noticed how many future prophecies are also written in past tense, in other words prophets used past tense to imply it will happen?
    It is terrible exegesis to assume all servants listed in Isaiah are Israel, when the text is specific each time.
    Isaiah 53:9 he is put to death with the wicked, so the entity being spoken about is dead?
    Isaiah 53:10 it pleased YHVH to crush him, and then he shall see his seed, so again the person is dead before it says they shall see their seed?

    This is easily explained within the Parable of the Seed Sower (Matthew 13:24-30), as Yeshua even said when the son of man is taken up, he shall see his seed from Heaven.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  7. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Please read Daniel chapter 7, Psalms 72. Eternal life in Paradise earth is promised the righteous. The wicked are promised eternal sleep in Sheol.
     
  8. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Isaiah 52:10-

    The Lord has revealed His holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our G-d.


    Not sure what this has to do with anything?



    No we can't. Jesus wasn't hated; he never prospered or had a family.

    Isaiah 53:10-

    And the L-rd wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and G-d's purpose shall prosper in his hand.



    Isaiah 52:4-6 sets the scene:

    For so said the L-rd G-d, "My people first went down to Egypt to sojourn there, but Assyria oppressed them for nothing."And now, what have I here," says the L-rd, "that My people has been taken for nothing. His rulers boast," says the L-rd, "and constantly all day My name is blasphemed. Therefore, My people shall know My name; therefore, on that day, for I am He Who speaks, here I am."

    It is clearly talking about Israel's redemption.



    The heathens wanted to kill the Jews, as per usual, for not committing idolatry. The Jews were prepared to go to the grave for their faith. Also in exile, they need to repent and if they do so, their souls will be saved and they will see their children.
     
  9. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I read it and I can't find an eternal Sheol sleep. Can you give me a verse?
     
  10. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    No, you wouldn't in Daniel. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

    Here is a study of mine:
    Link: Truth Seeker - Judgment & Sheol
     
  11. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Because in Hebrew, Yeshuat Eloheinu is the Salvation of our God, with the roots Yeshua Elohim, it says we will physically see this (Psalms 98:3).

    Thus the Servant in Isaiah 52:13-14 is specifically stated as being sent from Heaven, who shall appear as a son of man.
    Zechariah 11:8 states he was hated by the leaders; which we can clearly see from the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Levites, who had him put to death as they didn't like him.
    He didn't have to; the seed (זרע) can be metaphoric, and is used in multiple Parables as his teachings, and followers.
    That is a terrible translation; zera is used by Joseph as a metaphor, and it doesn't always imply children, it means seed.
    Different timeline, Isaiah 52:1-9 is talking about the Messianic age, and since Yeshua's mission is interrelated, they're told at the same time.
    So based on Isaiah 53's connotations, the Heathens killed and persecuted Jews as they wanted to have their sins forgiven in someway? :confused:
    Isaiah 53:9-10 says the entity talked about in the text, is literally put to death with the wicked.
    Isaiah 53:11-12 says the reason they receive is because they were put to death, because they've made many turn to righteousness, because they made intercession for the transgressors...

    None of that applies to Israel, and trying to make it fit defiles the Law, and just blatantly ignores context in many places.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #111 wizanda, Jan 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  12. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    I’d say that the story clearly praises the daughter, and Jephthah follows his daughter’s advice.

    ... yet. I suppose that acquiring my house would now become a priority. Presumably, if you offered enough - or gave me a compelling reason to just give it to you - you could get control and keep your promise.

    That scenario isn’t that different from shorting a stock: you promise to sell someone a quantity of stock - which you don’t yet own - for a certain price at some date in the future. By the agreed date, you need to acquire the stock. Admittedly, this is easier when you’re trying to buy shares than one particular house, but the principle is generally the same.

    You can still try your utmost to fulfill your oath. If other people try to stop you - as I assume they would if you tried to bring a pig into the temple - well, you can only do what’s physically possible.

    ... but if you knew - or ought to have known - that pigs are forbidden as sacrifices but chose to promise it anyway, then the fact that it’s forbidden isn’t a reason to break your oath.
     
  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    From the wrath of the Christian God.
     
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  14. allfoak

    allfoak Alchemist

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    It is because the Christian religion has been perverted.
    The term religious porn comes to mind.
    They have taken something sacred and turned into something gross.
    Because the message has been perverted so bad it has become a virtual prison for most who get involved.
     
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  15. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Can we really say Adam was a perfect human, having disobeyed God?
     
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  16. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    So Jesus no longer has a soul.
     
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  17. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    According to this the soul has no separate existence from the body.

    In my own thinking, the soul would be seen as the "life force of the body". So in death one gives up body and soul.

    No Existence Separate from the Body
    The biblical conception, as noted, views the soul as part of the psychophysical unity of man, who, by his very nature, is composed of a body and a soul. As such, the Bible is dominated by a monistic view that ascribes no metaphysical significance to human existence, for it sees in man only his tangible body and views the soul simply as that element that imparts to the body its vitality.

    The soul is, indeed, considered the site of the emotions, but not of a spiritual life separate from that of the body, or of a mental or emotional life in conflict with that of the body, it is, rather, the seat of all of man’s feelings and desires, physical as well as spiritual.

    Jewish Spirituality and the Soul | My Jewish Learning


    However, really for me it is interesting how one can create a narrative by finding a meaning to a word that fits the narrative.

    The seat of man's feelings - the subconscious mind. This more fits my personal narrative. So now when I see the word soul I think subconscious mind.

    A reading of the Bible can take on a whole new meaning by either rightly or wrongly redefining a word to suit your narrative.

    One can argue all they want the "correct" meaning but without access to the actual author, who's the say they are wrong?
     
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  18. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    It is certainly an odd belief.

    Trying to make sense of it I can perhaps imagine that God needs to experience sacrifice in order to better understand the needs and plights of humans.

    But that, obviously, implies that the presumably boundary-less God had serious empathy problems until some 2000-odd years ago.
     
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  19. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    I'm well aware of that, but you mistake my point. If there are multiple stories all throughout the Old Testament - the Hebrew bible - where the god of Abraham is commanding or accepting human sacrifices, why would Jesus' sacrifice not be just as much accepted?

    Ásgarðr is also the world of the Æsir; we worship them, not their world.

    I know quite the opposite. Your myth of the Garden of Eden shows very grave errors being made.

    As told in the bible, that whole situation is just pettiness on Moses' god's behalf. Did you know that Pharaoh was fully willing to let the Hebrews go after the first couple of plagues? He was going to send them on their way, until your god made his mind up the opposite for him. It's a sticky wicket either way, but the Pharaoh knew what the cost was in saying "no" that final time.

    What's more, since Jesus allegedly rose from the dead, nothing was lost. In fact, as the story goes, he got more powerful through death, so really nothing was lost. Sacrifices are when something is lost or given up for good and final. What did Jesus loose or give up in such a manner?
     
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  20. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Can you quote some praise from that chapter?

    I had a feeling you'd say something like this. What would happen if you shorted a stock but lost your assets before acquiring it?
    We have a rule that a person can't consecrate something to the Temple that doesn't belong to him (consecrating something to the Temple means you've taken an oath to donate it). When you consecrate something it gains a certain status (for instance, it becomes prohibited to use by anyone but the Temple), but you can't change the status of someone else's property for anyone but yourself. You'd end up transgressing the prohibition against false oaths automatically. It's like taking an oath to turn the sky brown or something impossible.

    Well, there's another problem here that animals are brought on the altar by the priests. But even if the person making the oath was a priest himself, if he doesn't get the pig up on the altar, he's breaking his oath. But he also won't be physically capable of bringing the pig on the altar, because no one will allow that. It would also be an oath contradicting an oath, because we're already sworn to uphold the commandments, but that's a side argument. The point is at the end of the day, the oath will be broken.

    Sure it is. The requirement to fulfill your oath is a commandment. The requirement to not bring pigs on the altar is a commandment. Why do you think the former should trump the latter?
     
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