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Featured Why Is Jesus As A Sacrifice OK?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    NIN inadvertently taps the story in their song bite the hand that feeds you. You can kill the messenger good luck killing the message that's hopeless and confused. The song is not just about religion it's about everything including "I do not believe" "I am agnostic." All of it nonsense. I love the heart beat on this one good luck killing that., that's pure Hopeless delusion. The messager needed to be killed to reveal he IS the MESSAGE. nature alive or extinction believers, non believers agnostics you all are confused. .what exactly is to believe? City folk are confused..bite the hand that feeds. Its in the bible!!!
    .

     
    #61 David T, Jan 16, 2018
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  2. The Emperor of Mankind

    The Emperor of Mankind Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

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    That's certainly an interesting way of looking at it.
     
  3. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Can we conclude that a deity that wants human sacrifices is malevolent? After all, from Buddhism's perspective and many ancient religions- there are certainly malevolent deities.
     
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  4. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    John 10
    11 “I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

    17 “The Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may have it back again. 18 No one can kill me without my consent—I lay down my life voluntarily. For I have the right and power to lay it down when I want to and also the right and power to take it again. For the Father has given me this right.”

    In no sense was it a human sacrifice. It was an execution. Human sacrifice was outlawed by Rome and Israel.

    It was voluntary, he allowed the execution to pay for the debt owed by his sheep.
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If someone could offer their life as a servant to serve a debt, why not the life of another servant to offset it? A man could offer the services of his children to pay a debt.....why not God?
    A life for a life was not a monetary payment.

    Who said? No one in Israel could be both a King and a Priest yet Jesus was said to be both after the manner of Melchizedek.

    His life was said to be a "ransom".....so what is a ransom? Isn't it the price you pay for what you think the captive is worth to the one being asked to pay it? A perfect sinless life was lost for Adam's children and a perfect, sinless life was offered to cancel the debt. The ransom price was not payable by any other living human being.

    Just as the sacrifices offered to God under the Mosaic Law had to be unblemished, so did the sacrifice God offered on behalf of mankind to settle his legal requirements. Just because he was human didn't make him sinful. It made him mortal which is why he could not be God according to Christendom's trinitarian teachings. Immortals cannot die. Jesus did not have to be God to pay the ransom...he just had to be Adam's 'equivalent'.

    It was his obedience being tested and he passed. Isaac did not have to die to fulfill that aspect of the test, nor would it have served the exercise.It was also intended to illustrate the situation and emotion of the Father in heaven offering his precious son because God required it. God's laws are so perfect that he abides by them himself.

    God's allowance of his friend voicing his concerns is proof of the closeness of their relationship. God already knew that there were no righteous people in Sodom except Lot and his family. So this was the lesson God conveyed to Abraham. God is never unjust or unrighteous in his judgments.

    At Exodus 32:7-10 we have the second incident I assume you are alluding to....

    "And the Lord said to Moses: "Go, descend, for your people that you have brought up from the land of Egypt have acted corruptly.

    8They have quickly turned away from the path that I have commanded them; they have made themselves a molten calf! And they have prostrated themselves before it, slaughtered sacrifices to it, and said: 'These are your gods, O Israel, who have brought you up from the land of Egypt.' "

    9And the Lord said to Moses: "I have seen this people and behold! they are a stiff necked people.

    10Now leave Me alone, and My anger will be kindled against them so that I will annihilate them, and I will make you into a great nation."

    11Moses pleaded before the Lord, his God, and said: "Why, O Lord, should Your anger be kindled against Your people whom You have brought up from the land of Egypt with great power and with a strong hand?"

    Verse 14 says..."The Lord [then] reconsidered the evil He had said He would do to His people."


    This was before Moses descended the mountain to actually see his people worshipping that golden calf. Then Moses himself became as angry as his God over the matter, resulting in him smashing the stone tablets written by God's own hand. Those who fell to idolatry were put to death.

    There are lessons everywhere in scripture if we take the whole story into consideration and not just isolate one incident out of its context.
     
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  6. socharlie

    socharlie Active Member

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    Christ was a symbolic sacrifice, 'blood' (spirit) was passed onto Earth to affect the entire humanity so consciousness of humanity change. Another worlds - tikkun olam.
     
  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Yeah, ain't that a Zeno's paradox.


    Innocent tools for a justifiable end, I would guess. What problems?

    .
     
  8. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Isn't a execution a person paying for his sin?

    They did something wrong, his payment, his debt is his life.

    Putting someone to death to pay for his sin is not outlawed. We still see this as justice today. Well some do.

    In the Tanach when it comes to the laws against human sacrifice, isn't usually referring to sons and daughters? Like children. The act of offering up an innocent child to appease God.

    But to execute a person, guilty of a sin is permissible.

    So Jesus accepting the guilt of his sheep was executed as a criminal guilty of committing a sin that warranted a life.
     
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  9. Rival

    Rival Tender Warrior
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    Who could offer his life? No-one has to die to repent.


    The meaning of 'eye for an eye' &c. is that the punishment should fit the crime. For instance, a fine.


    There is no 'manner' of Melchizedek. Here it is from Chabad:

    The Lord swore and will not repent; you are a priest forever because of the speech of Malchizedek.

    And it's not about the Messiah.



    G-d never required a human sacrifice for anything; not for Adam, not for anyone. Offerings were brought and animals and grain sacrifices made. People could also repent with prayer.

    Jesus was blemished by being circumcised, by being beaten, bloody and bruised. Also, again, according to Torah,
    humans cannot ever be sacrificed. G-d condemns this multiple times in the Law and the Prophets.

    This in no way justifies a human sacrifice though.
     
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  10. Rival

    Rival Tender Warrior
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    It's not a sacrifice. A sacrifice is someone voluntarily offering something of value to G-d, like cattle or part of a harvest. This is a criminal being punished for his crime and to make sure he cannot do it again. Two completely different concepts.



    Everyone is someone's son or daughter.



    Yep. Still not a sacrifice.


    A person cannot take another person's guilt. If I were executed for a crime you committed, you would still be guilty and still have sin.
     
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  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You’re right, God didn’t command it. — Jeremiah 7:31

    But there were animal sacrifices required in the Mosaic Law .....btw, most of those were eaten by the priests.

    All of that pointed forward to, ie., was symbolic of, the Messiah’s sacrifice. (So was the Passover, for that matter: the lambs’ blood represented Jesus’ blood.....remember “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world”? Jesus was even killed on that very day it was celebrated!)

    Keep in mind, Jesus was willing to offer Himself — he wasn’t forced. He understood and recognized the value of what was required: giving His perfect human life, which was exactly what Adam lost for us. Although it was done in our behalf, the value of it was given to God. As our Buyer, those who want to, can belong to Him and receive everlasting life, which is what Adam lost.
     
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  12. Rival

    Rival Tender Warrior
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    Yes, animal sacrifices.
     
  13. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    This is self-sacrifice, not the sacrifice of another. Shouldn't we all sacrifice ourselves for humanity?
     
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  14. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Right, you called it(what happened to Jesus) a human sacrifice, not me.




    Right, the act of capital execution is not a human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was not allowed by either Rome or Israel. Jesus was executed for a capital crime. Just because you, and some others want to view it as a human sacrifice doesn't make it true.

    No but you can pay their debt. Like you could offer to pay for a traffic ticket for a friend they couldn't afford to pay for themselves.
     
  15. Rival

    Rival Tender Warrior
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    Christians view it as a sacrifice. Voluntarily or not a human sacrifice is not acceptable to HaShem.
     
    #75 Rival, Jan 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  16. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I think it is a travesty of justice when a person suffers and dies for another person's transgressions.
     
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  17. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 53:
    10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    The Christian teaching is that Christ is our Passover lamb that takes away the sin of the world depending on various issues:

    John 1:28-29 . . .Beth′a‧ny across the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day he beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!
    This is a fundamental teaching contained in the NT and as seen in the OT here in Isaiah. If you agree or not is not the question. This is what we believe, end of story.

     
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  18. Rival

    Rival Tender Warrior
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    As I have said before, Isaiah 53 is talking about Israel. Have you also noticed how it uses past tense?
     
  19. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    It is alright because the death of Christ was not a human sacrifice. God did not require any human to be sacrificed to pay the penalty of sin. For one thing, no finite human could pay such a price for all the sins of humanity to the infinite God, so God Himself came to pay the price which only He could do on behalf of humanity.

    "There are several reasons why the sacrifice of Christ on the cross does not violate the prohibition against human sacrifice. First, Jesus wasn’t merely human. If He were, then His sacrifice would have also been a temporary one because one human life couldn’t possibly cover the sins of the multitudes who ever existed. Neither could one finite human life atone for sin against an infinite God. The only viable sacrifice must be an infinite one, which means only God Himself could atone for the sins of mankind. Only God Himself, an infinite Being, could pay the penalty owed to Himself. This is why God had to become a Man and dwell among men (John 1:14). No other sacrifice would suffice.

    Second, God didn’t sacrifice Jesus. Rather, Jesus, as God incarnate, sacrificed Himself. No one forced Him. He laid down His life willingly, as He made clear speaking about His life: “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again” (John 10:18). God the Son sacrificed Himself to God the Father and thereby fulfilled all the requirements of the Law. Unlike the temporary sacrifices, Jesus’ once-for-all-time sacrifice was followed by His resurrection. He laid down His life and took it up again, thereby providing eternal life for all who would ever believe in Him and accept His sacrifice for their sins. He did this out of love for the Father and for all those the Father has given Him (John 6:37–40)."

    If God hates human sacrifice, how could Jesus' sacrifice be the payment for our sins?
     
    #79 InChrist, Jan 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Capital crimes in Israel meant the death sentence. With death hanging over their heads as the punishment was carried out swiftly, there was little time for repentance. If you took a life, you paid for it with your own. Adam gave his children a dreadful genetic inheritance which sentenced every last one of them to suffer the same penalty as he did. His death paid for his own sin....Jesus' death pays for the sin of all his offspring.

    That is true, but a life taken in recompense is not just a fine, is it? A life for a life meant equivalency. No one was perfect or sinless after Adam's disobedience and expulsion from Eden. So God provided his own trusted son to fulfill the role of redeemer. Jesus was fully human but Adam was not his father....nor was Joseph, who knew where Jesus' life originated.

    If a man sold his son into service to pay a debt, and he came into money, he could then provide the means to release his son from service. But if a benevolent friend provided the the price of the debt, the son would be released all the same. As long as the payment met the debt, it mattered not to the debtor who paid it.

    Well, Christians believe it is.

    Melchizedek was King of ancient Salem and “priest of the Most High God”. (Genesis 14:18, 22) He is the first priest mentioned in the Scriptures; he occupied that position sometime prior to 1933 B.C.E. Being the king of Salem, which means “Peace,”

    Melchizedek is identified by the apostle Paul as “King of Peace” and, on the basis of his name, as “King of Righteousness.” (Heb 7:1, 2) Ancient Salem is understood to have been the nucleus of the later city of Jerusalem, and its name was incorporated in that of Jerusalem, which is sometimes referred to as “Salem.” (Psalm 76:2)

    In a Messianic prophecy the sworn oath of God to David’s “Lord” is: “You are a priest to time indefinite according to the manner of Melchizedek!” (Psalm 110:1, 4) Who is David's "Lord"? This inspired psalm gave the Hebrews reason to regard the promised Messiah as the one in whom the office of priest and king would be combined.

    The apostle Paul, in the letter to the Hebrews, removed any doubt about the identity of the one foretold, speaking of “Jesus, who has become a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek forever.” (Hebrews 6:20; 5:10)
    This is the Christian view.

    How many of Israel's sacrifices involved blood offerings? (Leviticus 9) Why do the religious Jews no longer offer blood sacrifice? Has the law changed? If it is God's law to offer these things to atone for sin, and there is no longer a temple at which to offer them, why do you think God never commanded another temple to be built? Why is Jerusalem a place of conflict and not peace as its name suggests? Could it be that God no longer resides there?

    Jesus was beaten by the Romans because the Jews falsely accused him of breaking their law, which he never did.....even Pilate found him innocent of any charge requiring the death penalty, washing his hands of Jesus blood. His blood was on the hands of his accusers.

    Jewish law required that all males be circumcised. Jesus was a Jew under Jewish law. Do you view circumcision as a blemish? Does God?

    It was not a human sacrifice in the same way as pagan nations appeased their gods. Like Israel did when they fell to sacrificing their children to Molech. (Jeremiah 7:31-32)

    A sacrifice in Israel was giving something to God that was of value to you. The more valuable the gift, the more it demonstrated a person's love and appreciation for all that God had given them. If a sacrifice doesn't cost you something, it isn't a sacrifice at all. That is what makes an offering a sacrifice.....instead of just a ritual.
     
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