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Why is it....

Discussion in 'Catholic DIR' started by chris9178, Feb 11, 2005.

  1. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    Why is it that many Catholics don't recognize themselves as Christians?

    Also, why is it that there is such strife between the catholic church and the protestants????

    Most people in all the churches I've gone to think that most Catholics are going to hell! Personally, I love catholicism! Nuns seems to be some of the nicest and sweetest ladies in the world. I know priests have been given a bad label as of late, but that's seriously the minority... I assume....

    Anyhow, I've been thinking about joining the Catholic church recently, but to be honest, most of them have the same beliefs about protestants, from what I know. So much disunity..... I seriously wonder what Christ, and the apostles would have to say about it. Of course, there was diunity in their times, so maybe they do have a response...... I'll have to check that out.
     
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  2. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    It's amazing...I kinda feel the same way...I watched the Pope yesterday as he left the hospital..my heart went out to him...he's serving God in a way we don't but should try to. He even feeling sick felt he had to be there for the people...kinda the way we do with our family...it made me take a good hard look at the catholic faith that I too have heard is 'so wrong' but I honestly never felt that way in my heart...there are parts of the catholic faith that makes no sense to me but basically I feel the way of their beliefs are the same they just do it a little different...some fear what they don't understand...If your heart is telling you to become catholic don't think about those who cripple thier faith by prejidice. God will lead, you must follow...go where He sends you and give the glory to Him...ignore those that down another of the christian faith; God will straighten them out.:)
     
  3. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Outsider perspective: I think the divide is closing. A lot of Protestant Christians today don't have the same objections to Catholicism that their denominations did even just a few decades ago. There's still a lot of issues to overcome, but I think both sides are coming to a better understanding of the other.
     
  4. Joannicius

    Joannicius Active Member

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    Right on Maizer and thanks again for the EO section (also it was placed in the right area) your historical understanding must have put it there, No?
     
  5. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    It was a joint effort, but yes that is where it belongs historically.
     
  6. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the question Chris..... just know that there are some Catholics who love our Protestant brothers and sister..... and pray for the day that we may all be one united faith.

    Scott
     
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  7. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I've never met a Catholic that wouldn't take the title "Christian." That would be an odd duck, and the same would be true of Orthodoxy.

    The strife is because the Protestant churches are in rebellion against Roman Catholicism, kind of like the attitude would have been between North and South had the South been successful in the American Civil War.

    Why would Catholicism reject Protestantism? Christ founded one Church. They next made the Nicene Creed, and it includes the profession "One holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church," which had been a belief long before that. There is one Church, not many, so Protestant Churches are in rebellion and active resistance to the Body of Christ.

    The same answers would apply to Orthodoxy, and there won't be any possibility of mutual recognition there.

    I hope that answers your questions :).
     
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  8. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    I've actually met quite a few. I had to explain to them why they were both Catholic AND Christian at the same time!

    Well, the Catholic church played a part in that rebellion. You will recall how corrupt it was. But I do think it's time for the end of the sects. I think the Catholic churched has changed dramatically since then though. In fact, I think they've changed a bit too much, and become a little to lax.

    But I still think the church should unify under Catholicism once more and straighten itself out.
     
  9. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Hmm, that must be an odd experience :).


    I look at things a lot differently. For me, the Church is the Orthodox Church, not the RCC, but that is another thread :). This is not the place for that.
     
  10. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    They do Chris.
    Those you`ve met are a very strange anomaly
     
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I can say from experience Chris, that many say that because to them the title "Christian" denotes a Protestant..... and to label themselves as such would risk being associated with that group.... and that's a no no.

    Just a little linguistic gymnastics.... those Catholics don't deny being followers of Christ or that the Church is more important that Christ..... it's just a poor way to explain the differences between us.
     
  12. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

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    Christian just sounds better than Protestant, nobody brags about being a WASP, so we claim a better title a lot. Catholic sounds alright all on it's own, and it entails a lot more than just being a regular old Christian nomad. Just funny but my husband has met one person who called Protestants "Christians" as if Christian were a bad word. But she wasn't a DEVOTED Catholic. Many Catholics are cradle Catholics who know less about thier faith than I do.

    I think we should be more united, though, absolutely. Just because you are a Catholic doesn't mean we consider you a lost soul. Protestants reject the Pope, on principle, they also reject many other church traditions. They are rebels, but we also believe that we ARE the church, us, as believers, individually and as a whole. That anyone who is faithful in follwing Christ, be they Protestant, Catholic, whatever, is a part of the church. Whomever is faithful at growing up in the Lord and becoming "Christ-like" is Christian, period. So yes we do think SOME Catholics are saved, though some of us are more grudging about it than others, allowing that they AREN'T the kind of Catholics who worship idols or saints, and all the other prejudices many of us have against the Catholic faith. Many would just have to consider those among the Catholics who truly did love Jesus to be the ones who "did not soil their robes" among all the others who have.
     
  13. Prima

    Prima Well-Known Member

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    *Cries* I wrote a lovely response....and my computer erased it. I think I'll rewrite it later...or else you can just AIM me sometime, if you like.
     
  14. Black Knight MI

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    I've heard such before but the fact is that only those Catholics who have heard that from non-Catholics and believed it would say such a thing.
    The other reason is that non-Catholics tend to use that as a catch all term and some do not acknowlege us as Christians, which is kinda funny because I was just reading up on the writings of the ECF (Early Church Fathers) and this passage by Ignatius of Antioch caught my eye.
    Bear in mind that this guy was a close friend and disciple of St. John and was bishop of the church in Antioch. He was arrested and taken to Rome and thrown to wild animals for being a Christian. We all should remember Antioch from Acts 11:26.

    "CHAP. VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.

    See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(17) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either

    See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.(2) even as where Christ is, there does all the heavenly host stand by, waiting upon Him as the Chief Captain of the Lord's might, and the Governor of every intelligent nature. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love-feast.(1) But that which seems good to him, is also well-pleasing to God, that everything ye do may be secure and valid. "

    So I have to believe that since this was written only a very few years after the death of St. John, that the name Catholic Church was already in use before this letter was written. So then that would also tell me that the Catholics WERE the Christians. Our society just uses the name Christian differently today...
    Pax vobiscum,
     
  15. SK2005

    SK2005 Saint in training

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    How can Catholics not be Christian?
     
  16. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Chris,
    It comes down to which definition of Christian they're using. Some say "Christian" means trying to follow in Christ's footsteps and be like Him (e.g. doing good works). Others believe that you are a Christian only if you follow Christ's teachings for salvation -- repent your sins to God, accept Christ as your saviour and acknowledge that your salvation can be found only through Him and God's Grace.

    My grandmother (93 this year) converted to catholicism in her early 20's and will tell you outright that she is not a Christian. She believes her salvation is through doing good works and obeying the dictates of the church (receiving all the sacraments, etc.). I don't think she's ever really consciously accepted that her sins were forgiven through Christ's sacrifice. I'm not sure if this is a failure in her understanding or on the part of the church though. Perhaps some of the practicing catholics could address the church's position on this better.

    To those who subscribe to the latter definition, my grandmother is not a Christian because she has not accepted that her salvation is only through Christ's sacrifice and God's Grace.

    It's just semantics, I think, and another one of those things we won't know until we die. :)
     
  17. Black Knight MI

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    Melody wrote:
    Hi Melody,
    God love your dear Grandmother! She apparently has missed a whole lot of real Catholic teaching and that is really sad. How, I don't know, because there is plenty of it out there and it's really easy to come by...even for free! See this site: http://www.amm.org/chss/chss.htm

    The Catholic beliefs are just like all other Christians in that our salvation is bought for us by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. (What do they think all those crucifixes mean?!)

    The simplest way of showing the way we believe about our salvation is expressed in the creeds that we recite all the time. These are very old and yet the timeless truths of Christianity are expressed beautifully and eloquently in them. I paste them here directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


    The Apostles Creed


    I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
    I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
    He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary
    Under Pontius Pilate He was crucified, died, and was buried.
    He descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again.
    He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting.
    Amen.


    The Nicene Creed

    We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.
    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
    begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.
    For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come.
    Amen

    Your dear grandmother's belief that her works will gain her her salvation is not really in line with Catholic teaching, BUT... she is still saved (to the best of our ability to know such a thing, since we cannot know the heart of another..can we?) because all her good works are the result of her faith in Christ, (and it sounds to me like you are implying that she really works hard at doing good things...right?)

    I always have to refer people to Matthew 25:31-46 and the epistle of James when we discuss the place that good works plays in our salvation. Some say they have no place, but I find that hard to support from the very words of the Bible that they quote and claim they believe. My attitude is that we need to take all of it in the context of all the rest of it. No properly taught Catholic believes that we can earn our salvation just by being good. The Church teaches that our good works DO have merit with God, which just makes good common sense...otherwise why knock yourself out doing them?

    St. James (who was the bishop of Jerusalem) has this down pretty well in the 2nd chapter of his epistle:

    "14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

    16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

    26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. "


    It speaks for itself I think...

    The other sort of "glow-in-the-dark" passage on this is Matthew 25:31-46, in which Jesus makes it very clear that at the judgement what we have done or not done to the least of the brethren will have a heavy bearing on where we'll spend eternity.

    Again...I think it kinda speaks for itself...
    So, in spite of your grandma's lack of theology :rolleyes:...I'd say she's as "Christian" as anyone can be, and I look forward to sharing eternity with her in heaven. :)
    Pax vobiscum,
     
  18. angel888

    angel888 Member

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    Not all Protestants or Christians believe in assured salvation or the Once saved Always Saved Doctrine.

    Mainstream denonminational Protestants DO NOT BELIEVE in such Unbliblical Teachings.

    Angel888
     
  19. Chris

    Chris Member

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    Actually, it's a predominant belief of many baptists. I certainly think they fall under the label of "mainstream".
     
  20. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

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    We say the Apostolic creed in Baptist church, with it's claim that we believe in one Holy Catholic church and all. I can understant how someone could claim to be Christian or Catholic while still missing the point entirely. But I think Catholics make good Christians. And Protestants make good Catholics.
     
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