1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why is it so controversial?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by quick, Jun 22, 2004.

  1. quick

    quick Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    112
    Ratings:
    +0
    Christianity Biblically recognizes all mankind as fallen and sinful; and recognizes forgiveness of sin as a gift from God, through grace and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Such faith entitles you to eternal life in fellowship with God. You give up nothing except your idolatry--of youself, your intellect, material things, your career--whatever, and accept the Triune God as the one true God and Christ as you savior. Simple.

    If God is, as he revealed himself to us in the Bible, the master and creator of the universe, then he has wisdom and power beyond our wildest ability to comprehend, and is to be respected more than anything else in the universe--indeed feared, unless you have been forgiven for your sinfulness. He loves us, but he demands justice. Simple.

    So, why is this simple (admittedly simple on the surface--the details are elegant and complex, but the simple faith of a mere child is sufficient, as the Bible instructs) faith which promises so much and costs nothing--it is a gift--so controversial? Why is the freely given gift of grace so hard to accept?

    As we age, all of us become profoundly aware of the short and fleeting nature of our lives. We all have certain pangs and gnawings about an afterlife and our ultimate future, if any. Christianity promises a wonderful answer to these longings, yet is still so controversial, even 2000 years after the birth of Christ.

    Why?

    Your thoughts?
     
  2. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    15,370
    Ratings:
    +1,653
    because not everyone believes in what a book tells them?

    just a quick thought.

    wa:do
     
  3. Rex

    Rex Founder

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,971
    Ratings:
    +374
    Religion:
    I won't tell
    some people need logical reasoning rather than blind faith.
     
  4. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    13,001
    Ratings:
    +1,059
    I do not consider myself a "sinful" man. I am lawful and loving and I make mistakes. But not sin. I have no need to be forgiven for natural characteristics of humankind.

    With no disrespect, I know that con men will promise imaginary gain to enhance their own gain. I have learned to require more than "I say so" as promise of my gain.

    "If" has a huge impact on any premise for it immediately should envoke caution. If God exists - if the Bible is truely his word - if Jesus was the Chritst, the Son of God - if - if -if.. Those are not propositions I consider plausable.

    I on another hand, do not have pangs about death - I only recognize the life I lead or have led as the meaning of life. (see my thread - Life after my death in the General Religious Forum)
     
  5. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    4,634
    Ratings:
    +223
    I don't believe man is fallen. Some people are sinful, but mankind as a whole is not fallen. When a person matures they don't need the kind of God who spanks the naughty child. I think the mature adult looks for wisdom and guidance and may look within for it. They may look to their higher self.
     
  6. eolsunder

    eolsunder New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2004
    Messages:
    7
    Ratings:
    +0
    You tell them boys.. all great arguments against the origional topic.

    1) The belief's that you list are great, if you believe in them. Others believe in entirely other beliefs, so basically what your saying is, why dont you believe what i believe. Simple. I have a brain.

    2) I also dont believe mankind is a fallen race. Sure, basically humans are animals must like the other animals on the planet, and humans have basic instincts. No human is perfect, any person who says they dont lie, cheat or steal is basically lying. Every human does it, it just depends on the degree. Punishing mankind for its basic natural instinct and calling it sin is silly. Believing in God does not fix these problems or get rid of them, mankind will still have its faults no matter if they are "saved" or not.

    3) If as you say God created the universe and is to be both feared and respected. Yes thats true. If anyone has such power, you naturally would fear it and respect it, but that doesnt mean you bow down before it and give up freedom and free thinking just because its stronger than you are. Bill Gates is much more powerful and richer than I am, but that doesnt make him a superior person. Hes just a man just like the rest of us. Im not going to fall on my knees to worship Bill Gates because he has 40 billion dollars and I have 50,000. Im not going to blindly worship and become humble to God because he can make the universe and I cant'. Truthfully, If God is so powerful and mighty, he wouldn't need worshippers and he sure wouldnt care about churches or priests.

    Personally if a powerful being like that came to me and said "you shall worship no others but me, and pray to me and do what I say because I am God" i would say, well unless you force me to do it, I will do what I think is right, not what you say, and I can choose who to worship and who not to worship, and if you dont like it, go find someone else. And if you want to punish me for not doing it, then i hope every human on the planet rises up and kicks your butt you bully"
     
  7. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    13,001
    Ratings:
    +1,059
    "You tell them boys.. all great arguments against the origional topic."

    Thanks for the compliment but 2 of the 4 "boys" are female.

    I often miss that too!
     
  8. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    5,746
    Ratings:
    +607
    The "Ifs" no longer work with me either. I do not care about what happens after I die, because, I'm dead. However, I care about how I live. And I want to live with as much peace and balance as possible. And I have not found that in western thought. No matter what some book that was written by men says. If you put the bible out in the wind and rain, it will soon decay, fall apart, and blow away. My bible is the wind and rain.
     
  9. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Let's analyze this 'faith of a child' for a moment. Children believe what they're told and don't question. Children are gullible. Of course the bible wants you to have faith like a child, because then it has nothing to worry about. Now, when you start thinking like an 'evil' adult, and try to make things make 'sense' and ask 'questions' all the time, well, thats when the problems surface.
     
  10. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    "my bible is the wind and rain"

    Ooh! I like that a lot! I think I'm going to make a thread of people's favorite quotes from these forums.
     
  11. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    5,746
    Ratings:
    +607
    Thanks Ceridwen. I actually read that somewhere before when studying native american shamans. I think some native american chief said that. I don't remember which one though.
     
  12. pegan

    pegan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2004
    Messages:
    48
    Ratings:
    +3
    "If you take the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman.

    Found that on religioustolerance.org

    ~*Pegan*~
     
  13. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    71,106
    Ratings:
    +29,382
    Religion:
    Erotic Dancing Girls
    With a clever choice of words, Quick, you make Christianity look wonderfully simple. Yet, is “simple” the most accurate description of Christianity? Would it not be more accurate to say that Christianity is very much like some poor, troubled person who is burdened with a lot of issues, a lot of baggage, and a lot of problems?

    You do not need to go far to find the issues and baggage, the problems and difficulties, that Christians find their faith brings them. You need only to read the posts on this message board – or the posts on any other message board that deals with religion – or even just the letters to the editor of your newspaper – and you will find myriad problems and difficulties with Christianity. It is anything but a simple religion.

    Many of those problems are so familiar to us that we overlook – because we now take for granted – how absurd it is to have those problems.

    For instance, whichever way I turn, whichever way I look, I see Christians struggling to reconcile their faith to science. But why should that be a problem at all? Would not a truer religion have less of a problem with science?

    Think of those Christians who feel they must deny the truth of evolution. How ridiculous to claim that evolution is false! Yet, what is it about Christianity that provokes so many people who follow it to deny science? Would not a simpler religion be at ease with science? Would not a truer religion have long ago reconciled itself to science?

    The difficulty Christianity has with science is but one example of how that allegedly “simple” faith is troubled. There are a thousand more examples. It is anything but a simple, straightforward faith.
     
  14. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    5,746
    Ratings:
    +607
    Yeah pegan, I'm not sure if it was a woman or man, but it was a native american shaman. I loved it once I read it.
     
  15. keevelish

    keevelish Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +6
    Christianity is not the huge umbrella that many think it is. It IS a simple belief. Jesus died for humanity. The strife that occurs in the so-called "complicated" Christianity is not even involved in Christianity. To be Christian means to be Christ-like. How can someone be Christian if they don't read the Bible and learn what Jesus was like, his attributes, his desires, his passion, and his purpose? Catholics are not Christian. Mormons are not Christian. Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian. How can they be Christian and say that a person is saved through his or her works when it says "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galations 2:16.

    Furthermore, who is anyone to say that "I would not bow down before my God- he can't FORCE me. "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" Romans 9:20

    Not a single being will be able to deny the glory of our Lord: "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10.
     
  16. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    5,746
    Ratings:
    +607
    Hmmm... jesus named peter the first vicar of his church. What did peter do? Founded the catholic church!! I would say that catholics are christians. And I would say that all churches that teach from that book can be said to be christians. Can one be a christian to a degree? Yes indeed. One may be a bad christian by one standard and a good christian by another. Take these 3 letters...

    A A A

    The second letter can be simultaneously big and small. When compared to the first letter it is big. But while compared to the third letter it is small. Which one is it? Big or Small?? It is indeed both. However, it is still the letter A. This is how all things are. It is in your perception that catholics are not christians, but it is anothers that they are. Who is right?? They both are when looked at from different perceptions.
     
  17. keevelish

    keevelish Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +6
    So how do you define one Christian? If he merely says that Jesus existed? Or if a person truly puts effort into acting as Jesus commanded? I have been to Catholic Masses and rarely do they read out of the Bible. Yet the Bible says to examine the scriptures. And no where in the Bible does it ever say to pray to Mary. You can't pick and choose what to believe if one says they are a "Christian." There's no grey area. If a person is a Christian, they are saying they are Christ-like and therefore must follow Jesus' teachings. All of them. A person can't say they are a Christian and choose not to follow the Bible because that completely defeats being called a Christian. They may be a good person, but not a Christian. Furthermore, no where in the Bible is the word 'vicar' ever used or is "catholicism' ever used. The Catholic church has its own teachings on Peter, but it is certainly not Christian.
     
  18. keevelish

    keevelish Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +6
    You sound like a relativist to me.
     
  19. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    keevelish,

    Heh, heh. I dunno what kind of Catholic Mass this was, but I can assure you that during traditional Catholic masses, the bible is read regularly. You've got the 1st and 2nd readings, the gospel, the hymns, etc.

    No where in the bible does it say not to pray to Mary. All in all, Catholics figure that if god thought highly enough of her to make her the mother of his son, then we should darn well show her some respect.

    I don't know what you personally believe, but the popular belief in the 'trinity' isn't contained anywhere in the bible either, yet tons of people believe in that and call themselves Christian.

    Neither are the words Lutheran, Protestant, Methodist, kangaroo, etc. Just because something isn't contained in the bible doesn't mean it's not valid.

    I would argue that there's ton's of grey area. The bible is interpreted in more ways than any other book I'd bet. that sounds like a lot of grey area to me.

    Why don't you think that the Catholic Church's 'special' teachings on Peter aren't Christian?
     
  20. keevelish

    keevelish Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    143
    Ratings:
    +6
    I don't think what the Catholic Church teaches is Christian because they add things to the Bible. The Bible warns against adding to or taking away from its teachings.

    If you believe that there may be important things left out in the Bible, then we cannot trust it at all. Which may then make Jesus a liar and therefore not perfect, because the Bible says he was sinless. And if Jesus is a liar, then God is a liar and every one should burn the Bible. And if that is the case, why are we arguing over religion at all? We should all just accept what everyone does as valid and become relativists. And if we should be doing this, you are wasting your time on this religious forum.
     
Loading...