Why is Islam so dangerous?

[loverofhumanity]

How do you distinguish between offense and defense?
This is a super important question for them peace -lovers.

EVERYONE says it is defense.
Japanese at Pearl Harbor? Self defense
Americans, Iraq? Self defense.

I notice you are back to saying that the caravans
were directly supporting "genocide". Unless they
were military convoys, that is nonsense.

You appear to be saying that ANY economic activity
of the "enemy" is a fair target. Is that so?

I believe as a Prophet of God Muhammad and the Quran are truth and according to the Quran the Meccans were intent on genocide. The Quran is an eye witness account of the facts.

The Baha’i Writings comment on the early persecution of Muslims.

“For thirteen years He suffered at their hands every conceivable tribulation, till at last He fled the city and emigrated to Medina. And yet, far from desisting, these people joined forces, raised an army, and attacked with the aim of exterminating every man, woman, and child among His followers. It was under such circumstances and against such people that Muḥammad was forced to take up arms.”

“Muḥammad’s military expeditions were always defensive in nature”

‘Abdu’l‑Bahá

 

[charlie sc]

Ive already stated that I fully believe Muhammad is a Prophet of God and that the Quran is the earliest historical account we have of the events of that time and it was recorded as events happened.

I believe Muhammad was infallible, perfect, sinless and error free as was the Quran so I believe He acted justly, morally and rightly in every situation.

So I reject any wrongdoing people might attempt to attribute to Him.

The perfect religion with the perfect prophet.

Cool

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Ive already stated that I fully believe Muhammad is a Prophet of God and that the Quran is the earliest historical account we have of the events of that time and it was recorded as events happened.

I believe Muhammad was infallible, perfect, sinless and error free as was the Quran so I believe He acted justly, morally and rightly in every situation.

So I reject any wrongdoing people might attempt to attribute to Him.

There is no point in continuing any debate on this subject with you. You've already arrived at an unreasonable, preconceived conclusion based on your own dogma-induced biases and not only are you not prepared to consider any evidence or any speculation that undermines it; you will actively reject it out of hand.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There is no point in continuing any debate on this subject with you. You've already arrived at an unreasonable, preconceived conclusion based on your own dogma-induced biases and not only are you not prepared to consider any evidence or any speculation that undermines it; you will actively reject it out of hand.

I respect that you don’t agree. I didn’t at first.

I used to be an atheist extremely opposed to belief in God and religion and considered all religion as dogma and brainwashing.

But when I came across the irresistible Words and Teachings Of Baha’u’llah I realized I was wrong and joined the Baha’i Faith and I wouldn’t change all the treasures on earth for the gift of this precious Faith. I now have inner peace, contentment, happiness, joy and Certitude that at last I’ve found the truth. That was 45 years ago.

Baha’u’llah teaches that all the major religions are true. That science is truth. That all people are born good. That all humanity whether rich or poor, black or white, religionist or atheist are all equal. That none are superior. This is the beauty of Baha’u’llah’s Teachings - To love and accept all humanity without prejudice.

If that’s dogma and bias to you then I wouldn’t give it up for a world of diamonds as this kind of an attitude will end wars and bring the world untold happiness.

The world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens
(Baha’u’llah)

 

[loverofhumanity]

The perfect religion with the perfect prophet.

Cool

Actually as Baha’is we are not better than or superior to in any way, form or manner whatsoever to atheists or any other human being on this planet.

We are not specially ‘saved’ or ‘chosen ones’. We are only servants or are trying to be of service to humanity nothing else.

 

[Audie]

I respect that you don’t agree. I didn’t at first.

I used to be an atheist extremely opposed to belief in God and religion and considered all religion as dogma and brainwashing.

But when I came across the irresistible Words and Teachings Of Baha’u’llah I realized I was wrong and joined the Baha’i Faith and I wouldn’t change all the treasures on earth for the gift of this precious Faith. I now have inner peace, contentment, happiness, joy and Certitude that at last I’ve found the truth. That was 45 years ago.

Baha’u’llah teaches that all the major religions are true. That science is truth. That all people are born good. That all humanity whether rich or poor, black or white, religionist or atheist are all equal. That none are superior. This is the beauty of Baha’u’llah’s Teachings - To love and accept all humanity without prejudice.

If that’s dogma and bias to you then I wouldn’t give it up for a world of diamonds as this kind of an attitude will end wars and bring the world untold happiness.

The world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens
(Baha’u’llah)

You never were an atheist. We've heard that chant-
"I was the staunchest of atheists, yea, verily,
so very atheist, till fell forth the scales from
off mine eyes and I saw God" garbage before.

We've heard it from full ten thousand
dogma chanting godists.

As something to tell an atheist you
would be more believable selling used cars.

 

[charlie sc]

Actually as Baha’is we are not better than or superior to in any way, form or manner whatsoever to atheists or any other human being on this planet.

We are not specially ‘saved’ or ‘chosen ones’. We are only servants or are trying to be of service to humanity nothing else.

I admire your worldview. What is of concern to me is how certain you are. Imagine your certainty in the hands of someone who interprets religious text as superior, hostilely, judgemental of others and they use it to support actions of violence.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You never were an atheist. We've heard that
"I was the staubchest of atheists, yea, verily,
so very atheist, till fell forth the scales from
off mine eyes and I saw God" stuff before.

We've heard it from full ten thousand dogma chanting godists.

As something to tell an atheisr you would be more
believable selling used cars.

I told you the truth.

 

[Raymann]

So, I cannot agree to your sweeping conclusions that it is the scripture that is behind terrorism. Scripture is clear that mankind is one. Yet those who see differences see that on account of their own hatred. This is, I note, the theme in all religions.

It is a little more complex than that. The scriptures cannot hurt anyone, is the people who interpret them and mold them to fit an agenda that turns
them violent. The terrorists are not going to use the verses that you can clearly interpret as peaceful and harmless. There are plenty of verses that can be interpreted as violent and those are the ones used by the terrorists.

Please consider these data. I believe that terrorism is a deep problem borne out of many political-economic-social-human causes and should not be reduced to a single cause.

I don't have a problem with that statement but we are here trying to find out why is it that Islamic terrorism is the answer to problems that equally affect people from all religions, races and ethnic backgrounds. Why is it always Muslims terrorists?
You are saying the reasons are multiple and complex,
fine, I agree with you but terrorism doesn't solve any problems. Muslim countries are not the only ones affected by poverty, lack of resources, politics and economy.

Why US had to invade or intervene in Afghanistan, Iraq, and and also in Syria?

Did you know the Muslims of Muhammad attacked the Byzantines after they killed ONE MESSENGER. Al Qaeda killed 3000 people, destroyed multiple buildings and 4 airplanes. The responsible people who committed these attacks were given protection by the Taliban in Afghanistan.
That's why Afghanistan was invaded.
Iraq was invaded because they were using weapons of mass destruction (chemical weapons). They did find the weapons in 2014.
Why Syria?
Are you serious?
ISIS was there, Isn't that enough reason?

These countries were most secular in west asia (Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria?). Now they are the germination centres of hatred.

The Taliban secular? I don't think so.
The governments of Bashar Hafez al-Assad and Saddam Hussein were not secular either. They were both very Islamic.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Iraq was invaded because they were using weapons of mass destruction (chemical weapons). They did find the weapons in 2014.

Who told you that? Where was Iraq "using chemical weapons"?

Why Syria?
Are you serious?
ISIS was there, Isn't that enough reason?

No. "We destroyed the village to save it" went out as a rationalisation some time ago. Invading places "just 'cos" is rather how the world got into the situation it's in.

Where do you get your historical information? It seems... slanted. You appear to be quite misinformed, honestly, but from experience, I suspect you have no interest in being corrected or hearing anything that contradicts your simplistic and factually false explanations, so I'm not going to argue. If you're interested in respectful, constructive discussion with someone who was actually there and involved in these event, great. But I'm not going to try to dissuade you of things you really want to believe.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I admire your worldview. What is of concern to me is how certain you are. Imagine your certainty in the hands of someone who interprets religious text as superior, hostilely, judgemental of others and they use it to support actions of violence.

Thanks. My personal view is that humanity has been progressively maturing and will continue to mature to a level of spirituality or humanism where peace will become preferable to wars and conflict.

We Baha’is believe that past expressions of violence and war were due to us being immature but that that is changing. One proof of this to me is the time between the first and second world wars and the time between now and the last world war which is over 60 years.

Humanity’s interconnectedness plus aversion to war has clearly grown which gives me much confidence that humankind is headed towards a golden era of peace and prosperity.

 

[Audie]

I admire your worldview. What is of concern to me is how certain you are. Imagine your certainty in the hands of someone who interprets religious text as superior, hostilely, judgemental of others and they use it to support actions of violence.

We dont have to imagine them.

 

[Audie]

I believe as a Prophet of God Muhammad and the Quran are truth and according to the Quran the Meccans were intent on genocide. The Quran is an eye witness account of the facts.

The Baha’i Writings comment on the early persecution of Muslims.

“For thirteen years He suffered at their hands every conceivable tribulation, till at last He fled the city and emigrated to Medina. And yet, far from desisting, these people joined forces, raised an army, and attacked with the aim of exterminating every man, woman, and child among His followers. It was under such circumstances and against such people that Muḥammad was forced to take up arms.”

“Muḥammad’s military expeditions were always defensive in nature”

‘Abdu’l‑Bahá

All that,to evade answering my question.
Yet again.

I suppose you are clever enough to see
where this is going.

You appear to be saying that ANY economic activity
of the "enemy" is a fair target. Is that so?

Are you going to answer?

I challenge you to either respond honestly, or
stand as an absolute intellectual, spiritual and
moral coward for running away.

 

[Audie]

I told you the truth.

Who said you lied?
I dont doubt for a moment that you believe
what you said.

 

[Raymann]

Raymann said: ↑
Iraq was invaded because they were using weapons of mass destruction (chemical weapons). They did find the weapons in 2014.

Who told you that? Where was Iraq "using chemical weapons"?

Weapons of mass destruction used by Iraq and Iran (1980-1988)
Saddam's Chemical Weapons Campaign: Halabja, March 16, 1988
Human rights in Saddam Hussein's Iraq
Do Reports of WMD Found in Iraq Vindicate George W. Bush?

Whether the reports are truth or not, I don't know but obviously the reports were there, I didn't make it up.

Raymann said: ↑
Why Syria?
Are you serious?
ISIS was there, Isn't that enough reason?

No. "We destroyed the village to save it" went out as a rationalisation some time ago. Invading places "just 'cos" is rather how the world got into the situation it's in.

The village was destroyed by the time we got there.
The war in Syria is a really complex one with many groups and countries fighting for different interests in play.
The US and its allies entered the war mainly to help defeat ISIS.
Is that too simplistic for you?
I'm only pointing out the facts that are relevant to the topic at hand and not getting deep into details that are not relevant but I do understand the complexity and different points of view this war can generate.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Raymann said: ↑
Iraq was invaded because they were using weapons of mass destruction (chemical weapons). They did find the weapons in 2014.

Weapons of mass destruction used by Iraq and Iran (1980-1988)
Saddam's Chemical Weapons Campaign: Halabja, March 16, 1988
Human rights in Saddam Hussein's Iraq
Do Reports of WMD Found in Iraq Vindicate George W. Bush?

Whether the reports are truth or not, I don't know but obviously the reports were there, I didn't make it up.

Iraq had chemical weapons in the 1980s and 90s. We know that and it's not in dispute. Where is your evidence it had them at the time of the 2003 invasion?

The war in Syria is a really complex one with many groups and countries fighting for different interests in play.

Correct. And as such saying things like "we're there because ISIS" isn't really helpful.

 

[loverofhumanity]

All that,to evade answering my question.
Yet again.

I suppose you are clever enough to see
where this is going.

You appear to be saying that ANY economic activity
of the "enemy" is a fair target. Is that so?

Are you going to answer?

I challenge you to either respond honestly, or
stand as an absolute intellectual, spiritual and
moral coward for running away.

I am responding what I honestly believe to be truth. You believe otherwise so we agree to disagree.

The whole theory of Divine Revelation rests on the infallibility of the Prophet, be He Christ, Muhammad, Bahá’u’lláh, or one of the others”. (Shoghi Effendi Guardian of the Baha’i Faith)

So whatever Muhammad decided to do I believe was the right and just thing. You don’t accept the concept of the infallibility of the Prophets so you want to find fault with Them. I can’t help you there because I believe They always did what was right.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Who said you lied?
I dont doubt for a moment that you believe
what you said.

I respect that you reject my views. You have every right to believe I’m wrong. That’s perfectly fine.

 

[Audie]

I am responding what I honestly believe to be truth. You believe otherwise so we agree to disagree.

The whole theory of Divine Revelation rests on the infallibility of the Prophet, be He Christ, Muhammad, Bahá’u’lláh, or one of the others”. (Shoghi Effendi Guardian of the Baha’i Faith)

So whatever Muhammad decided to do I believe was the right and just thing. You don’t accept the concept of the infallibility of the Prophets so you want to find fault with Them. I can’t help you there because I believe They always did what was right.

You are not responding, you are evading.

It is not just "agree to disagree". You are
running away from an honest answer.
Note what I said about moral cowardice.

According to your testimony-
Your "mohammed" set the example that attacking
any economic activity of the "enemy" is justified.

But will you just come out and say, "yes that is so"?
Nope. No matter how many times I ask, you hide
behind a non answer about how mohammed was perfect.

The boys of 911 just followed "mohammeds" perfect example.
Chanting, yes, Allahu akbar.

A person would have to be brainwashed, morally
bankrupt or simply insane to think that is a religion
of peace whose members only resort to violence
as a last ditch defense.

We have you to thank for again making this
abundantly clear.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You are not responding, you are evading.

It is not just "agree to disagree". You are
running away from an honest answer.
Note what I said about moral cowardice.

According to your testimony-
Your "mohammed" set the example that attacking
any economic activity of the "enemy" is justified.

But will you just come out and say, "yes that is so"?
Nope. No matter how many times I ask, you hide
behind a non answer about how mohammed was perfect.

The boys of 911 just followed "mohammeds" perfect example.
Chanting, yes, Allahu akbar.

A person would have to be brainwashed, morally
bankrupt or simply insane to think that is a religion
of peace whose members only resort to violence
as a last ditch defense.

We have you to thank for again making this
abundantly clear.

Muhammad only set a good example. Those who committed that act did so in disobedience to the Quran. They did it for their own selfish reasons not on behalf of Islam.