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Featured Why is Islam so dangerous?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Raymann, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. charlie sc

    charlie sc Well-Known Member

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    Then I have to argue some religious scripture are so interpretative that it’s just not useful.

    Yet, it's still in the Bible. What you are doing here is calling superiority from one religious belief over another. Most religions, especially aggressive ones, do this. I argue that actual evidence, not belief, is superior. Faith will always have its place in society, but it fails immeasurably when it conflicts with evidence.

    If everyone had your worldview, I'd like to imagine no one would have a problem with religions. Similarly, I don't see atheists/agnostics argue against Buddhists; though Buddhists aren't telling people what to do, judging others or going on some holy crusade. The problem with your view is that you're telling people how they should interpret their religious scripture. Whereas, atheists, among their number of criticisms, are comparing religious scripture to real world values and consequences. Atheists don't impose belief upon others, but you do. Atheists will question actions, not enforce beliefs. You can practice any religion you want as long as you aren't causing any unnecessary suffering. Therefore, if you interpret religious text as peaceful and inclusive then I admire that. Consider however, your desire for people to believe what you believe is many, many more times intrusive and oppressive than desiring people not to inflict unnecessary harm on another human being.

    I ask you then, with your peaceful mindset, how would you deal with the Islamic mentality? They get extremely offended when people question Muhammed and even show images of him. And they enforce apostasy and blasphemy laws in their countries. How would anyone be able to question their interpretation of scripture?
     
    #581 charlie sc, May 5, 2019
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
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  2. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    My mindset is only that I want the world to live in peace and prosperity and an end to wars and conflicts. If others like war or prejudice then that’s their life nothing I can change. I can only try and make myself a decent person.

    To me just accepting people as equal human beings is sufficient. Belief is personal and everyone has some sort of belief.

    So there’s no imposition of will just promotion of understanding between people. I am not a judge so it’s only for me to extend welcome and friendship.

    My experience with Muslims has been very good and to me they are fellow humans just like you and others here.
     
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  3. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Totally irrelevant and evasive.

    Innccent hard working people are out in the desert
    with a caravan.

    Here comes an attack by a bunch of
    Muslims to commit premeditated attack
    and murder, on innocent non combatants.

    Kinda like 911.
     
  4. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Can we see some of your research? Publications etc. and data?

    Have you screened out the effects of politics: beginning with land grabbing, western interventions, oil politics etc. Have you screened out the effects of discontent due to poverty and extreme inequalities?
     
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  5. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Yep, those guys with caravans were attacking with swords.
     
  6. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Some of us actually read bin laden's letter to
    america. Did you?

    Have you "screened out" any consideration
    that islam itself is ever a factor?

    The team of islam -apologists here, whether patt
    of a troll farm or not all do that. Why?
     
  7. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    If that’s what you want to believe then nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise.
     
  8. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Again, total irrelevance.
    It has nothing to do with "what I want to believe."

    Putting blame on me for your
    continued evasion is shabby and dishonourable.

    You made no effort at all to explain how
    attacking a caravan is not premeditated murder.

    Instead you evade, and blame me.

    But it is all good. We've seen over and
    over and over acts of the most sickening
    inhuman behavior done to the "allah
    is great" chant.

    Some hope that maybe Islam actually is
    a religion of peace

    We see apologists like you claim over
    and over and over that "Islam" is all about
    "peace", yes, peace, so very peaceful.

    But! Asked to explain an apparent discrepancy
    in the testimony FROM YOU, where we have
    premeditated assaults on PEACEFUL INNOCENT
    caravans in the earlest days of this "peaceful religion"...
    wby, you fold up like an arab tent and flee over the dunes.

    Blaming me.

    Good work, may anyone hoping for good
    somewhere in Islam take note.
     
  9. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I’m only stating what I know to be true. We all think differently. You have different views that’s fine. I’m also not a Muslim but a Baha’i that upholds the truth of Islam. So we all have our own viewpoints. That’s the beauty of human diversity.

    I know you and many others desperately want to assign blame on Islam. But the Quran doesn’t teach murder or looting or evil things that people do. It only teaches to do the right thing.

    When the Muslims said there was only one God, the Meccans began to persecute them because their economy was based upon tributes to over 360 gods. When Muhammad refused bribes to retract His teaching then the Meccans began a campaign of torture, killing, cruelty, ransacking and plundering homes, closing their businesses in short a campaign of systematic oppression to wipe out the Muslims. After 13 years of Ghandi style non resistance they fled homeless and penniless to Abyssinia as refugees where King Nagus gave them refuge. The Meccans pursued them to Abyssinia. They then fled to Medina where the entire population accepted Islam. The Meccans still threatened and pursued them with intent to commit genocide.

    Then they received the verse to defend if attacked. The Meccans used profits from the caravans to fund the war against Muhammad so preventing them from financing the war became a tactic. Also many caravans were armed and went close to Medina. The threat of an armed group was very real.

    The Quran says Muhammad was a perfect example not what people have wrongfully accused Him of.

    But here’s the crux of the matter. You weren’t there and neither was I so you are getting your information about what really happened from a source you believe is true. You can’t actually prove it. You can only believe in your source like we do.
    What verse in the Quran are you referring to about your enquiry?
     
  10. Thirza Fallen

    Thirza Fallen Crazy Cat Lady

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    Fundamentalism and extremism is dangerous in any religion. Muslim countries don't have separation of church and state.
     
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  11. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Again, blaming me, and now very ugly
    and insulting lies. "Desperately"...
    Garbage. You made that up.

    Amusing how you started with what
    you "know" is true, a dissolve at the
    end with how you were not there, it is
    all what one wants to believe.

    But still, you have premeditated murder
    on innocent merchants.

    The loosey goosey standard for what
    is an "attack" on Islam is the same standard
    used by the boys of 911. I expect you will
    scramble to convince yourself it is not.

    And you defend it as just. THAT is a crux,
    if you want a crux.
     
    #591 Audie, May 5, 2019
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
  12. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Which verse in the Quran are you referring to with regards to your accusations?

    The Quran does not support terrorism.
     
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  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "The Muslims were first attacked, persecuted, their businesses plundered and livelihood destroyed and some killed during 13 years of persecution in Mecca after which they fled to Abyssinia as refugees and given refuge by the Christian King Negus. The Meccans pursued them to Abyssinia intending to exterminate and commit genocide against the Muslim community. An assassination attempt was also made against Prophet Muhammad but failed."
    "Meccans who would not permit freedom of religion to the Muslims"

    Wonderful summation of the cause and context of the conflict.

    Regards
     
  14. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Thank you brother. God bless.
     
  15. The Emperor of Mankind

    The Emperor of Mankind Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

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    I don't buy this 'relentless persecution' narrative because it was written by the victors, and those writing history rarely portray themselves in a bad light. That's not a Muslim problem; that's a human problem. Why would the Muslims sit there and take it for 13 years if they're so rich to begin with? Why didn't they leave earlier? Why didn't they pay mercenaries to fight back against the Quraysh to begin with? Realistically there's not much reason to believe the Muslims sat their enduring violent persecution because 'they were in the right'; nor is there reason to believe the Muslim portrayal of the Banu Quraysh is honest or impartial. After all the Quraysh are portrayed to be after Muhammad solely because he threatens their ability to make money. While undoubtedly that would be an influence, the Muslim narrative gives the impression that the Quraysh and other Meccans had no sincerely-held religious beliefs of their own. After all why would they? They're just 'statue worshippers'. :rolleyes:

    The thing about the Muslim narrative is I think there is some truth to it which is why people believe it so readily. Here's what I think really happened.

    Muhammad, a member of the Banu Quraysh, grew up worshipping the Arab gods, including Allah. One day he went to a cave, seeking solitude. There he may or may not have had an experience. This could have been caused by ingesting a hallucinogen, sustaining some kind of injury or be the result of some fever; it could have been genuine. Regardless, he was convinced he was right. He had been singled out to bring the word that Allah was the only true god in the pantheon; all the others were false. He came back to Mecca espousing this creed; a bizarre combination of Allah worship mixed with the Christian and Judaism too. The Quraysh at first thought he was a bit odd but since he was family they tolerated it. As time went on, Muhammad got worse. He started decrying the beliefs of his fellow Meccans insulting them and generally behaving like a bit of a jerk. At this point the Quraysh & other Meccans wanted to step in and have a word but they were stopped because Muhammad was protected by the head of the clan (his uncle, Abu Talib - who was willing to let his own children embrace Islam) who was happy to let him do his thing. Hardly the action of an intolerant man who would have encouraged the same attitude from his subordinates, yes?
    And because Muhammad was, as a result, a member of the ruling class.
    His demagoguery attracted a few followers at first, then more when they realised nothing was being done to stop him - but turned most people against him. The Quraysh and other Meccans got fed up as Muhammad slandered their beliefs, their traditions and their ancestors as a result. And he was allowed to do this for over 10 years. That doesn't sound like the reaction of an intolerant society or ruling class, does it?
    To make matters worse; Muhammad was claiming the temple to their gods belonged to his religion and they needed to get out immediately. So, as described in the Hadith, other members of the Quraysh asked Abu Talib to get his nephew under control and calm him down. That didn't work as Talib refused to do anything. So they asked Muhammad directly: 'stop defaming our gods, our religions and our forefathers'. He didn't. So the other members of the Quraysh boycotted Muhammad.

    Muhammad only left Mecca because Abu Talib died; ending the protection Muhammad enjoyed. The other members of the Quraysh could not now be restrained in returning in kind the intolerance Muhammad had subjected them and their beliefs to for over a decade. The Muslims weren't driven out. They left because they knew the consequences of their actions were about to descend upon them. Even if that did involve violence, this is not war.


    War is two sides fighting one another. You're saying one of those sides actively did not fight for the first thirteen years so there can't have been a war.

    The truth is the Muslims had settled in Medina beyond the reach of the Quraysh. The Meccans only put an army in the field after the Muslims launched an unprovoked attack on their trade caravans. Harming & killing innocent merchants and, yes, threatening their revenue.

    There's also the fact that Muhammad ordered a campaign against the city of Ta'if which had never gone out of their way to harm the Muslims. They did this because Ta'if's elders rejected Muhammad's attempts to convert them to Islam and had him chased out of the city with children throwing rocks. They did this partly because they feared the wrath of the Quraysh, but probably also because Muhammad's reputation as a rabble rouser and a demagogue must have preceded him.



    Let's be real. If the Meccans had really wanted to exterminate the entire Muslim community they could have done so at any point in the thirteen YEARS between Muhammad's 'revelation' and his departure for Medina. The Quraysh could not have stopped a flash mob beating or stoning Muhammad to death.

    This narrative is only spun to make the early Muslims seem all the more noble for
    1. 'Surviving' it; and
    2. For not retaliating against the Meccans in kind (though they did against the Banu Qurayza).
    There's no reason to believe any claims of attempted genocide by the Meccans. This is a spun narrative designed by the victors to further vilify their enemies and lend their hostile takeover of Mecca and forced Islamisation of Arabia seem all the more incredible & morally justified.
     
    #595 The Emperor of Mankind, May 5, 2019
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
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  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Accuse? What bs is that?

    Quit trying to put all this on me!!

    You quoted multiple verses about peacrful
    peaceful. Then you gave an example of
    going out to kill innocent merchants because
    they indirectly support the enemy, then
    tossed in a couple more "good" reasons for
    premeditated murder of innocents.

    So, why ask me for quotes? I just fed yours
    back to you.

    Then asked you to explain a discrepancy in
    whst YOU claimed. A disctepancy big enough
    to fly a boeing 757 through it.

    The "explanation(s) you offered
    justify 911 and ten thousand other acts
    of consumate evil.
     
  17. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Yes, any religion that will not permit others to worship as they
    will is a cancer on mankind. Now, just where is it we see that?
    Japan? South Africa?
    Where are people kilked for saying anything like a hint of
    not be.ieving in some god?
    Um, Switzerland?

    ANY civilized non islamic country?
     
  18. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    You are accusing Muhammad regarding caravans. I’m asking you to provide me with evidence from the Quran which was eye witness first hand records of events that happened for 23 years of the history of Islam.

    You need to back up your claims from the Quran as it is the ONLY authority accepted by all Muslims and is the ONLY Word of God.

    I suspect you get your information from rumours and Hadiths which have been proven time and again to be fraudulent and if a Hadith contradicts the Quran then the Quran triumphs any Hadith.

    The Quran says Muhammad was an example to mankind. So unless you can quote a verse in the Quran supporting your accusations I assume you are relying on baseless Hadiths which even the Quran condemns and I can provide the Sura for that.

    Quran verse please that says Muhammad acted dishonestly.

    You either have it or you don’t but you must put up or your accusations are baseless because the Quran is the EARLIEST EYE WITNESS accounts of what happened during the 23 years you are referring to.

    Quote verse please.
     
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  19. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    And your information comes from? Your source?

    The Quran is my source and is accepted by all sects of Islam as the Word of God not Hadiths or stories written by others.

    The Quran also is the very first historical account of the birth of Islam and the first 23 years that exists in human history and was eye witness to the events of Muhammad’s Life and actions.

    From the passages of the Quran we know that the Meccans were persecuting the Muslims and denying them freedom of religion.

    If you study the Quran you will find the history of Islam within and from its account it does not support some of your views.

    Muhammad was renowned even by His enemies as being honest and truthful. But the point is the only way you can get the story you have is from much, much later accounts even 100’s of years later by persons who were not eye witnesses as opposed to the Quran which recorded the events of Muhammad in His own life time.

    I go with the Quran as it was on the spot when things happened whereas people who were born generations later and western historians were not.

    Apart from that, I believe the Quran to be the Word of God and in that respect it’s account is flawlessly accurate based on first hand knowledge.

    The Quran is the earliest history of Islam humanity has.
     
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  20. FragrantGrace

    FragrantGrace If winning isn't everything why do they keep score

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    Are you under the impression Muhammad only fought in self defense?
     
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