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Featured Why is hell eternal?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Jollybear, Aug 31, 2018.

  1. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Ok, so if there not lying then what are they experiencing?
     
  2. Prometheus85

    Prometheus85 Active Member

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    What?
     
  3. Prometheus85

    Prometheus85 Active Member

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    @Jollybear earlier on this thread you said hell is just a mental emotional state as well as not being Physical. By your very logic hell doesn’t exist expect for in people’s mind. Now your saying it does exist based off peoples NDE testimonials.
     
  4. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Mathew 25:41
    "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." This is that tartarus prison.

    Jacob, job, Jesus BODIES wer in the grave. Jesus spirit however did go into hell the spirit prison or tartarus and took some souls out. Thats what peter says and thats one of the reasons i believe souls can be redeemed in hell.

    Resurrected as in there bodies. So there bodies return to life, not there souls.

    Now whoever goes to the second death NEVER returns to life.
     
  5. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Your not reading my words carefully. Im not trying to write a book here. I like to keep it simple, small and communicative.

    Close your eyes and picture an image of something. Anything. A tree for instence. Ok, is it physical? No, but it looks like it right? Ok, theres an illustration for you.

    Ill repeat myself like i do a thousand times for you.

    Hell is mentel, emotional suffering, but it looks physical. Its astral.
     
  6. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Well?
     
  7. Prometheus85

    Prometheus85 Active Member

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    Your analogy is bad and the reason it’s bad is because trees are real things! You can go outside and look at a tree if you want to see one. That’s not the way hell works. Hell is an emotional suffering not physical (your words). By your logic hell only exist in our minds.

    Which brings me to my confusion. How can u say hell is an emotional and suffering state not physical. But also say an afterlife exist such as heaven or hell based on peoples NDE testimonials???

    Also if you believe in an afterlife, when we die u must believe that our souls go to either heaven or hell giving how we lived our lives on earth. So if someone dies and goes to hell which is in your words a emotional and suffering state not physical. Does that person after repentance come back to life lol
     
    #167 Prometheus85, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  8. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Its not a bad analogy at all.

    And your mocking me at this point.
     
  9. Prometheus85

    Prometheus85 Active Member

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    It is a bad analogy. Because we can go outside a not only see a tree but Physically come into contact with a tree, you can’t do that with hell...expect if you die. Even if you die you still can’t do that with hell because in your words hell is not physical; only mental. So when someone dies and is condemned to hell by god, that person is not technically dead or in hell. They are just in a comatose mental state of hell and once they repent BOOM! they either have to option come back to life or to go to heaven. So I guess since heaven is a paradise the Person that’s dies and get accepted into it doesn’t have to worry about repentance, so they’re as a good as dead and never coming back?
     
  10. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    And i had a question for you and your refusing to answer it. Why?

    If there not lying, but there not experiencing what you say, then what are they experiencing?
     
  11. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    I explained the spirit realm to you. It was a good analogy. Deny all you want, that dont make you right.

    The tree in your mind is NOT physical, but LOOKS so, the tree outside in your yard IS physical.

    Did i really have to break it down that much for you? Really?

    And no, repenting in hell dont make you return to life on earth.
     
  12. Prometheus85

    Prometheus85 Active Member

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    Again your analogy is bad. Because trees are real. The fact that u are using a tree as your analogy proves that. You can’t compare something that’s real to something that’s not real. I.E. invisible,unprovable plane of existence which has no empirical evidence at all.
     
  13. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Ok, picture something else in your head. Something like a flying horse with wings.

    Its not physical the image, but it looks like it.

    Does that help you better?

    Also you just said hell was not real. How do you know that? Then what are the NDErs experiencing?
     
  14. GODbeMERCIFULtoMEaSINNER

    It's My Birthday!

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    The detruction of the wicked is an eternal destruction they are forever being destroyed and consumed by the flames of wrath. Their soul will sink into an infinite gloom, and their punishment will be exquisite, and their misery will be perfect. Nothing else could offset the demerit of sin but perfect misery endless woe. The glory of God must be Vindicated,

    I'm going to give to you something I wrote on the glory of God and maybe when you understand what it is to fall short of the glory of God, you will see that the great worth of Gods Majestic Glory can never be compromised even if it meant the damnation of the entire universe.

    TITLE: Short of the glory of God
    Scripture: Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
    INTRODUCTION: Gods glory is the infinite and matchless worth of his person which includes his triune nature, and all of His perfections, His unblemished character, and His boundless dominion and sovereignty, all of His splendor, brightness, and his infinite might and majesty, in short everything the scripture declares and hasn't declared to us about God is his glory.
    Gods glory cannot really be defined, and to attempt to define it, is to give but a feeble, faint representation of it, if your eyes could take in every detail of Gods glorious creation on earth and every detail of Gods glorious creation in the heavens, and every action of God, and if you could at the same time take in all that was involved in Christs death, and in his holy, unblemished life, this would only "declare God's glory" and give you but a taste of it, the full understanding of Gods glory would be infinitely incomprehensible and unimaginable, God's glory proceeds and comes forth from his heart of hearts, and if there were some way to be able to take in such a boundless, unfathomable amount of Devine glory, our minds would literally explode because of a massive overload, it would swallow our thoughts, we would be like a man standing on a sandy beach seconds before a tsunami. Psalms 139:6 "Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
    PROPOSITION: to use this text and others to try to explain what it means to sin and "come short of the glory of God" and also to show that Gods glory with includes all of his attributes, have been totally, and completely vindicated through Christ's satisfying sacrifice, and that God can be "just and the justifier" of all those who come to him through the Lord Jesus, and also to show that unrepentant sinners will be shut out from Gods glory when they die in their sin, and that born again believers will behold Gods glory throughout the boundless duration of eternity.
    1. What does it mean to "come short of the glory of God"?
    A. It means that we have failed to live up to Gods perfect standard of truth, holiness, righteousness and love, and that our thoughts, words and deeds have not been in perfect conformity to the Devine law.
    The only way to live up to Gods perfect standard of his glory is to love God supremely and to love our neighbor as ourselves, in every moment, of every day, and this we have all "fallen short of", all sin revolves around a hatred for God and our neighbor.
    2.) What are the ramifications of refusing God the glory that rightfully belongs to him? 1 Chronicles 16:29 "Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name"
    A. Those who refuse God his glory in this world, will be shut out from his majestic glory in the world to come, through a vindictive display of vengeance God will take back the glory that has been refused him, and bring a satisfaction that is proportionable to the glory of his perfections, in this way God shows his infinite glorious worth and that it is a fearful thing to brutally, and violently attack the glory and majesty of God
    2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"
    3.) How is it possible for anyone to be saved if all of God's perfections demand, and require a vindication that would fully repair the ruthless attacks aimed at the glory of God?
    A. Because Christ who is the Word "became flesh and dwelt among us" and lived a life that always pleased and glorified the Father, He could offer himself up as a payment for sin, and because of his sufferings, his shed blood, and his death he vindicated fully all of God's Perfections, in this way the glory of God is never compromised in the redemption of sinners.
    Romans 3:26 "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
    4.) Why will believers behold Christ's glory throughout eternity?
    A.Those who have taken Christ and "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" will behold God's glory throughout the ceaseless ages of Eternity. John 17:24 "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."
    CONCLUSION: The infinite worth of Gods glory can never be compromised, all sin will be punished in Hell or atoned for in Christ, this is the only way God has chosen to preserve the honor, and worth of his Glory. Gods love, justice, righteousness, holiness, goodness, sovereignty, mercy, wisdom, omnipotents, immutability omniscience omnipresents and his faithfulness, etc have all been under assault since the fall of Adam, but God through the second Adam has healed the wounds that his glory has indured by vile sinners in a thorough vindication of his perfections through Christ's bloody cross.
     
  15. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Well, that was very elaborate.

    If i understand this correctly, Gods glory is eternal and perfect, so therefore it demands either a perfect, etermal sacrifice (e.g. Jesus) to satisfy the offense of sin against it, or a perfect eternal misery upon the souls who reject the sacrifice.

    But again, those who reject Jesus AND REPENTENCE (very important, for if we continue to sin despite accepting Jesus, there is then no sacrifice for sin, but rather a fearful expectation of judgement and fire that will CONSUME (anialate, or destroy) the enemies of God) why cant Gods glory and justice be vindicated by eternal anialation? Its still an eternal justice, its just not misery. That shows God is loving and not sadistic, would it not?
     
  16. GODbeMERCIFULtoMEaSINNER

    It's My Birthday!

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    Nothing could be more benevolent then for God to execute vengeance upon his enemies eternally, it would actually be the opposite of benevolence for God to forces his enemies to spend an eternity with him in heaven, also Christ who had infinite virtue suffered for hours before he went to the cross and then he suffered for six hours on the cross for sinners.
    For an impenitent sinner to be able to pay his sin debt in a moment would not do justice to the ignominious death Christ endured or to his own debt that he has incurred. Benevolence will make no objection against the eternal damnation and torments of the impenitent but will be in perfect agreement with it.

    This is something I wrote a couple years ago on God's benevolence as it appears to Sinners and Saints.


    TITLE: God's Benevolent love for Saints and Sinners.
    SCRIPTURE: Matthew 5:45 "...he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."
    PROPOSITION: to use this text and others to show that God is infinitely benevolent to both sinners and saints, and also to show that there is a difference between the way God loves the just and the way God loves the unjust, and also to show why there is a difference in his benevolent love, and also to show that an unjust sinner can become just in the sight of God but only through the Lord Jesus Christ.
    1.) Why are some sinners Just in God's eyes, and others unjust?
    A. The "scripture hath concluded" that none of the decendants of Adam can be above sin, because we are "all under sin".
    But through Christs atonement anyone can be declared just through faith in God's beloved Son.
    Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
    2.) In what way does God have benevolent love for lost sinners?
    A. God demonstrates a benevolence to sinners that they could in no way earn or in any way deserve, the unjust are infinitely undeserving, they have no merit only demerit, they have no virtue only vice, all their "righteousnesses are as filthy rags" and yet God gives them sunshine, and rain, and offers them salvation. Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
    B. The benevolence that God shows to impenatent men is a benevolence without acceptance or approval, there is a great gulf fixed between vile sinners and a God of infinite holiness. God cannot and will not embrace unrepentant sinners. judicially he has separated himself from them, and his "wrath abides on them" he "is angry with the wicked everyday" while they remain in this unconverted state.
    Psalms 5:5 "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
    C. If sinners die impenatent, God's benevolence will make no objection against thrusting them down to hell, this is the sinners just dessert, and is in no way inconsistent with his benevolence, but in perfect harmony with it.
    Psalms 9:17 "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."
    3.) In what way does God have benevolent love for the just.
    A. First, all born again believers were at one time spiritually dead and under the curse of sin, they were the unjust, but through repentance, and faith in God's Son, the curse has been removed, and a blessed state of justification given.
    B. Second, the benevolence that God has bestowed upon believers is one of ACCEPTANCE, and APPROVAL. God can through Christ recieve the most heinous offenders of the law, because Christ has vindicated the law, both in his life and death, so repentant sinner are seen forgiven and righteous in Christ, the scripture declares that they are "the spirits of just men made perfect. "
    Ephesians 1:6 "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us ACCEPTED in the beloved."
    Matthew 25:23 "His lord said unto him, WELL DONE, GOOD and FAITHFUL SERVANT; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: ENTER THOU INTO THE JOY OF THY LORD."
    So in this respect the benevolence God shows to the just, is much different than the benevolence He shows to the unjust.
    CONCLUSION: God is an infinite spring of benevolence, "...he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." He has provided a way for vile sinners to be forgiven through the death of Christ. The only way a sinner can know the benevolence of acceptance, and approval is to receive the only one God accepts and approves of and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
     
  17. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Ok....theres a bit of a misunderstanding here. Let me explain. Im not saying God will force his enemies to come to heaven.

    Also, im not saying a sinner would suffer a moment vs christ suffering a few hours.

    Let me put it this way.

    Sinner dies without Jesus. Goes to hell for say 1 full year of suffering. Thats many more hours then Jesus suffered. So, after 1 full year of suffering in hell, why not put the soul out of his misery and call it a day? Keep the soul destroyed forever and that satisfies eternal justice because he does not return to life from the destruction.

    Whats wrong with this? Doesent that make more sense to do that?

    The love of God you describe is just God showing patience and mercy to a sinner while he lives on earth.

    But once in hell, God turns sadistic via bestowing eternal misery. How can that be love? To illustrate, if you had a child and he did wrong, would you spank him or burn his hands on a stove? You see? If you, though sinful and fallen would choose the lighter punishment, how much more loving and tender would God be? Isnt that a display of Gods image upon us, that we have this small level of compassion?
     
  18. GODbeMERCIFULtoMEaSINNER

    It's My Birthday!

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    In this world we know time, but in the world to come there is no time, and once you go into this timeless realm you are fixed in an in an unchangeable state, in this life sinners are mutable, but in the world to come both Sinners and Saints are immutable and time is no more. ( Sinners and Saints are not immutable in eternity in the same sense that God is immutable they will be able to increase in knowledge and understanding, Sinners and Saints will know more and more of the majesty and glory of God throughout the ceaseless ages of Eternity)

    Revelation 10:6 "...that there should be time no longer:"

    Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Agreed. The body is what God created for Adam. It was a dead and lifeless body at first.

    The "soul" in Hebrew is "neʹphesh" [נֶפֶשׁ]; Greek is "psy·kheʹ" [ψυχή] and they are always translated as "a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys." Never is a "soul" even suggested as if it is an immaterial part of a living creature that can go somewhere else at death.
    Rather than being "immortal" the scriptures clearly show that the soul dies.

    "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die." (Ezekiel 18:4 NASB)

    "Spirit" in Greek is "pneuʹma" and comes from pneʹo, meaning “breathe or blow,”, The Hebrew ruʹach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Both "ruʹach and pneuʹma, then, basically mean “breath”. We get the basic meaning of this word in English when we speak of "pneumatic" tires...or "pneumonia"...it pertains to air or breath in relation to humans, and is used of "spirit" creatures (angels)

    So when God "breathed into Adam's nostrils, the breath of life" he was animating a dead body by energizing all its cells with oxygen. As long as Adam breathed..he lived. So the spirit is the breath that sustains the life of all living creatures. It is not a "ghost figure" because there is no such thing mentioned in the scriptures. It is a common belief in other religious systems however.

    When Ecclesiastes 12:7 says..."then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." it is not talking about some immortal part of man going to God in heaven....it is stating that the lifeforce that is sustained by breathing can only be restored by God in the coming resurrection.

    Solomon also said..."For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything. . . . Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 NASB) "Sheol" is the grave...sometimes erroneously translated "hell"......but we all go there.

    King David agrees at Psalm 146:4....."His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish."
    If we float off to a spiritual realm, then surely we would need some thinking capacity? Here God's ancient servants held no belief in life after death.

    Jesus himself will resurrect the dead as he says in John 5:28-29..."Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment." This was yet future...a time when Jesus will call ALL the dead from their graves. He cannot call people from their tombs unless they are all still in them. Some will merit life, and others will have to prove themselves worthy of a second opportunity. These will be the ones who never got a chance to hear about God or his Christ.

    The reason why immortality of the soul became a popular belief is because humans were created to live forever, and when Adam introduced death it was such a foreign concept that was only mitigated by the teaching of the resurrection. But for some, a resurrection in a future time was not enough....they wanted a way to go on living without actually dying. Immortality of the soul was adopted by both later Jewish, and Christians theologies from Platonic Greek influence...but it was never a Bible teaching.
     
  20. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    When it says the dead know nothing, there thoughts parish. Its refering to there body/brain activity.

    Here are some verses id like you to interpret for me that for me appear that a soul remains concious after death.

    John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

    Luke 16:1-15 rich man and lazarus story. Ritch man TALKING IN hell.

    Mathew 17:1-8 moses and elijah appear to jesus and his apostles and TALKED to jesus.

    2 corinthians 5:1-8 paul talking about the body as a tent and wanting to be away from it and be with the Lord.

    Ok, your turn. :)
     
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