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Featured Why is God worth worshiping?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by FlyingTeaPot, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Because my "God" will destroy me and I will be liberated
     
  2. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    why complicate things? being thankful is enough.
     
  3. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    It's a form of mind control, but even in NK, China, and the other examples you mentioned, it's not always the same "god." They all use the same basic tactics of fear and conditioning, which starts out very young. Fearful parents pass it on to their children, and the cycle repeats over and over. Religion puts the idea in people's heads that even death is not an escape, since the concept of "hell" has been invented. Religion, just like any totalitarian government, seeks to control every aspect of a person's life, even to the point of controlling sexual urges and even what people eat and consume. Religion seeks to keep people passive and dependent, to keep them in line and obedient to whatever or whoever is in charge.

    I'm not saying that it directly relates to the genocides and other abuses of power, since humans are also very animalistic and tribalistic. Nationalism, racism, and imperialism had an appeal to more primitive instincts inherent in humans, which relates to the idea that one "tribe" is better than "the other."

    True. There's a variety of influences at work, but religion and its influences still operate in the background. The "little guy" may not be able to defend himself, but there have been times when a bunch of "little guys" band together and try to fight back. That's when those in power can use other tactics of manipulation, such as the "victim card" and so forth. They try to play on human emotions such as sympathy and compassion, which are also derived from religion. That's why the same forces who confiscate people's property/money or wield power in other ways always play the "victim card" when it suits them.

    I often think about this whenever I see someone arguing from the viewpoint of capitalism and support ideas of economic darwinism. They use arguments that "the strong dominate the weak" and that both rich and poor are the way they are because one is more clever or stronger than the hapless, the unskilled, or the weak. They see the class structure as being a "natural" state of affairs, but when faced with opposition, they suddenly switch tactics and play the "victim card" and turn into a bunch of weaklings. It's a common tactic to cite the number of "victims" under Stalin, Mao, et al., at which point they suddenly abandon previous arguments about the "strong" ruling over the "weak."

    I do believe in cause-and-effect, and when capitalists and other money-grubbers embrace despicable tactics to acquire wealth and keep others on their knees, they're hardly in a position to cry about it when the counter effects start rearing their ugly head. That's the world that they have created.

    I see recurring patterns of this throughout history. I don't see that there's any real way to stop it for the long term, unless humans change their baser natures, which doesn't seem possible. Now that the nuclear genie is out of the bottle, it seems that we're on a course towards self-destruction, which may be inevitable. Tactics which were previously successful are starting to backfire, especially since resources are spreading thin and more people are turning into angry dogs fighting over the last few scraps of meat. That's kind of what we're seeing today.

    I once thought that humanity had a chance at becoming more enlightened, particularly when the ideals of the 1960s were propagated (peace, love, brotherhood, compassion for the poor and working classes). But by the 1980s, all of that evaporated, derided as "bleeding heart" liberalism and replaced with unrestrained capitalism, nihilistic hedonism, and "he who dies with the most toys wins." Oddly enough, it was touted by Reagan and his followers, many of whom claimed to be Christian and supporting the so-called "moral majority." If they hate those with compassion and dismiss them as "bleeding hearts," then that's the world that they get. They can't complain about it, and they won't be able to play the "victim card" for much longer, since sympathy and compassion are drying up. They view that as namby-pamby, unmanly, and "wimpy." But they can't have it both ways. They end up being hoisted by their own petard.
     
  4. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    That is the problem. We don't have any way of stopping the rich from lording it over everyone else. Our instinctive methods are set. We have people hired for security and those in power become the controlling voice once they get to that place. Anyone opposing these get dealt with, shot, prison, etc. People don't have the ability to say, 'this person needs to go' - bang. Only conspiracies, deep ones never revealed, the hidden powers get away with it as with Kennedy. I was studying how some of these groups play both sides and pick up the pieces that are left, with people happily following their saviors -- not realizing that these saviors were the ones causing the meltdown in the first place.
     
  5. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Power does change hands from time to time. Revolutions can and do happen, where the rich who had previously lorded it over everyone else are deposed and someone else takes their place. And then they start lording it over everyone else, and the cycle is repeated. Just as the song goes, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." But then there are times when the new boss is even worse than the old boss, although people don't really know that until it's too late.
     
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  6. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    You completely misunderstand what I am saying. It's not being thankful that is the issue here. It's the negative connotations around the word "worship" with regards to authoritarianism that is the issue. An omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. But a monarch like King James needs to the people to treat him as if he is God himself walking the Earth. The OP question is more than just being thankful to God who is mostly indifferent to us. The question about is God worth worshiping is really not about God. I think that is the focus and the point of the discussion.
     
  7. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Certainly an omnipotent God could program everyone's thought processes to be a certain way. But I think this is not what God is looking for in our existence. I think each of us is God's way of experiencing the thrill of having limitations by sharing in our experiences of joy and sorrow. I think our idea of God is too small. I think God's purpose is to experience every possible configuration and sequence of matter over an infinite amount of time. This includes the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics where every possible quantum state is realized. In one space-time dimension vanilla is your favorite flavor of ice cream. In another it is chocolate. I think for God's omnipotence to be realized every possible choice you and I can make has to be played out to the end cross referenced with every other possible choice and outcome everyone else can make. It's completely mind boggling to think about but I think the thread of our life right now is just one of an infinite number of threads playing out. And God wants to experience them all.

    Of course this kind of makes the idea of morality more interesting. I think what makes us enthusiastic is what God want's us to concentrate on more than what makes us or other people sad and less enthusiastic. This is based on the idea we are created in God's image and that the reflection is a two way mirror. What makes us happy also makes God happy.

    I don't think God is responsible for our mess. I think man is responsible for messing up his own bed. We really need to take God out of the equation. When a person sins against someone else getting forgiveness from God is easy. But getting forgiveness from the person you've sinned against, not that is what is important. It's just a cop out not to take responsibility for your own sins.
     
  8. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Here is your problem. When you go into McDonalds and look at the menu, there's a beautiful picture of a Big Mac. You order a Big Mac. When you sit down at the table and open your Styrofoam container, what is sitting in front of you in no way looks like the picture on the menu. But in your mind, when you bite down on it, you are thinking about the pretty picture in your mind.

    So here is my point. Words are NOT the reality they represent. Words are an abstraction. If I have a county map, it shows the roads, but there's an infinite amount of more detail in reality than is shown on the map. The problem with your CPU metaphor is it is an abstraction about reality. When you look at reality, it is in no way shape or form like a computer system running a computer program with clock cycles and a get-fetch-execute sequence. It just isn't. Reality is not discrete. Reality is analog not digital. Although words represent reality they in now way shape or form capture the infinite detail present in reality.

    For example, you mention mathematical preciseness. You are not taking into account experimental error. Although nature does repeat in patterns, there are many times when rogue waves of energy convergence in deeper parts of reality's fabric cause data points to be non-compliant with the context mathematics used to represent nature's behaviors. Nature is messy. Computer science is a perfect science. I just don't see the computer metaphor working for reality.

    It may be the deeper you go into reality's fabric the more non-deterministic state transitions occur. This is so much not like the way computer's behave.
     
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Equating a computer designed by mammals that think about sex all the time; to the code of the reality we see around us, has a slight contrast.
    The Fibonacci sequence is interwoven everywhere; what we see as random chaos is because we can't calculate all the processes taking place.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  10. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I am more partial to Cantor diagonalization as a more representative model of random chaos. No matter how much you observe there is always more you haven't yet observed.
     
  11. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Well this is the point in my answer, the CPU knows everything taking place within the Matrix throughout time, so it is worthy of all worship.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  12. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    CPU is a central processing unit built out of NAND gates. There's an ALU and microcode. There is a finite input and output bus to a memory store.

    I really don't think you understand what CPU means. You are using the word CPU like someone would use the word God. God is an open ended ambiguous word with an infinite number of meanings and aspects.

    The matrix you are referring to is nothing like reality. Computer memory can repeat itself with the exact same pattern of bits. Computer memory, or the matrix, can never be used as a metaphor for reality because reality as a memory system NEVER repeats itself. The state of reality only ever occurs once in sequence for the entire Universe. The Universe is always changing state in a forward direction and never repeats exactly the same way for all of existence.

    The other problem with your interpretation of reality is you are ignoring half the evidence. Reality is by its very nature waves of energy. The waves of energy are not skipping along in synchronization to some Universal clock pulse of the matrix. Waves of energy are flowing in every possible direction all at once. What we experience is just snapshots of state. And you having the delusion that the snapshots of state are somehow connected to each other in a meaningful way. The reality is there is so much activity in the waves of energy it is impossible to know or understand everything that is actually going on in the fabric of reality. There's just not enough computation strength in our abstractions to match all the activity going on.
     
  13. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    FlyingTeaPot,
    I really feel sorry for you, because you cannot be a Christian!!!
    All Christians have a disire to search for their Creator, Called Christian Exestentialism. From your post your knowledge of The Bible is, at best, Terra Oncognita
    One good reason for worshiping The Only True God is to have a future, and to worship and praise the One who Created the Heavens, the earth and all that is in it.
    Every terrible conditions that we see today in the world was prophesied, wars, crime, violence, having no love for neighbors, and even lost souls, like you, Hebrews 11:6.
    It is true that if the world was going to stay like it is or keep degenerating, like it is, it would hardly be worth living in, but The God who made heaven and earth, has had written that He is going to end the suffering and make a paradise out of this world, where all who love Him will live forever, in perfect conditions, with myriads of interesting and fulfilling work we will have pleasure in accomplishing. We will have an eternity to perfect ourselves, to accomplish whatever we have wanted to do, but didn’t have time for. No such thing as boredom!!
    Mankind has not even scratched the surface on all the things we will discover that God has created, 1Corinthians 2:9, Ecclesiastes 8:17. God has been waiting, He does not want any to be destroyed! John 3:16, 1Timothy 2:3,4, 2Peter 3:9,10.
    Don’t you think living in a paradise earth would be better than spending an eternity in The Lake of Fire and Sulfur, Revelation 20:14,15??? Agape!!!
     
  14. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yeah, as to me they're the same thing...
    I get what a CPU is in a computer, and this is just lots more complex, as we're talking about a CPU that creates reality out of consciousness.
    The matrix we're existing in has many different levels of code; we've not even seen quantum physics properly yet, so stating there is no time-code is a belief.
    The periodic table is mathematically equatable.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Of course, why would anyone belong to a religion unless they believed it was the right one.
    Mostly I do Not quote, but show where the reference verse or passage is that I am referring to.
    Each of course can agree or disagree, but I would like to know why one disagrees.
     
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Your ^ above ^ post makes me think of Ecclesiastes 8:9 which reads that man has dominated man to man's hurt or injury. Starting over as in a 'New Broom Sweeps Clean' does prove true, true for better or for worse.
    In the case of Jesus being a figurative 'New Broom' that will sweep clean, it will be for the best because it will be a sweeping away of the wicked forever. ALL the wicked will be destroyed forever as per Psalms 92:7.
    The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked, and only the upright will remain .
    - Proverbs 2:21-22; Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
     
  17. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    God wants people to discover the truth for themselves by their own efforts.
     
  18. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    :eek:

    :rolleyes:

    Do you think before you write?
     
  19. Spiderman

    Spiderman Veteran Member

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    I seek the truth night and day... Not so sure that I found it
     
  20. HeatherAnn

    HeatherAnn Active Member

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    I try to ask myself if what I’m worshipping (prioritizing) is worthy of it.
    Of course, my ideals are different from daily practice.

    Paul Tillech defined god as “one’s ultimate concern” and suggested we pursue such a convern that is worthy and of the least idolatry possible. To me, this means prioritizing love (“God is love”), if love is defined as appreciating what is, while striving for what’s best - each evolving moment and circumstance. Not easy, but a worthy goal.
     
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