Why is God alive?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You deny the evidence. The Bible is evidence, Israel is evidence, Christians are evidence. Heck, religion itself is evidence.

The Bible is evidence that human beings learned to write down their thoughts. To suppose it is evidence that "God told them what to write down, but doesn't do that anymore" is simply and totally unsupportable, by any evidence you could possibly produce. Your own personal beliefs, for the record, are evidence only of what you've been told -- and chosen to believe. Nothing else.

Israel is evidence of what, exactly? What is it evidence of, that any other place inhabited by human beings since archaeology has started to discover them, does not share?

Christians are evidence only of the fact that children -- because they are pre-programmed to do so -- will believe what they are taught. This is true, by the way, of every other religion. And if it is not, then you have to explain how their could possibly even BE other religions if Christianity is the kind of evidence that you claim for it.

And that brings me to your last point: if, indeed "religion itself is evidence," then it is also evidence against itself, because every religion quite literally denies much of the substance of every other religion.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

When the book of Revelation was completed.

God.

He can do whatever he wants.

It is abundantly clear you have no knowledge of the history of the scripture you seem to hold so dear. It might interest you to know that -- BEFORE "the canon was closed" -- there was a very serious debate about whether or not Revelation should even be included in it.

 

[RedDragon94]

Israel is evidence of what, exactly? What is it evidence of, that any other place inhabited by human beings since archaeology has started to discover them, does not share?

There's this
An ancient clay seal was discovered in Jerusalem, and it could have belonged to the city's governor

The Bible is evidence that human beings learned to write down their thoughts. To suppose it is evidence that "God told them what to write down, but doesn't do that anymore" is simply and totally unsupportable, by any evidence you could possibly produce. Your own personal beliefs, for the record, are evidence only of what you've been told -- and chosen to believe. Nothing else.

So no one had to tell you there wasn't a God?

And that brings me to your last point: if, indeed "religion itself is evidence," then it is also evidence against itself, because every religion quite literally denies much of the substance of every other religion.

Well, while I may not invest in every religion I am open to the possibility that other religions could be true alongside Christianity.

Christians are evidence only of the fact that children -- because they are pre-programmed to do so -- will believe what they are taught. This is true, by the way, of every other religion. And if it is not, then you have to explain how their could possibly even BE other religions if Christianity is the kind of evidence that you claim for it.

The evidence for Christianity is not obvious, the evidence for God is.

 

[RedDragon94]

It is abundantly clear you have no knowledge of the history of the scripture you seem to hold so dear. It might interest you to know that -- BEFORE "the canon was closed" -- there was a very serious debate about whether or not Revelation should even be included in it.

No one ever told me that, and I'm not really sure if I trust you. How do I know that you or someone you heard that from isn't just making up stuff to say? Cite something.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Book of Revelation - Wikipedia

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There's this
An ancient clay seal was discovered in Jerusalem, and it could have belonged to the city's governor

"Could have?" So what? And what does that say about the existence of God?

So no one had to tell you there wasn't a God?

Quite the contrary -- lots and lots of people told me there was. Hell, everybody around me when I was growing believed (or thought the believed, which is quite different) in God. I, on the other hand, looked at those beliefs -- very specifically, what was claimed about the nature of God, what was claimed about what God wanted, and what the world actually looks like -- and came to my own conclusion. The contradictions were simply too profound to merit the slightest belief.

In my own mind, of course, but I trust my mind. I don't trust everybody else's -- I've seen them in action.

Well, while I may not invest in every religion I am open to the possibility that other religions could be true alongside Christianity.

It is, I would think anybody ought to see, impossible that religious claims that contradict one another entirely can both be true. Christianity says "Jesus is Son of God," Islam says "not so." Both cannot possibly be true. Islam says "Mohamed is the last prophet," and Mormons claim that there are prophets running around all over the US. Both cannot possibly be true.

The evidence for Christianity is not obvious, the evidence for God is.

Okay: present that "obvious evidence."

 

[RedDragon94]

Book of Revelation - Wikipedia

So because some people rejected it that means that the book isn't even canonical? Well, I could be wrong about the books of the Apocrypha as a protestant and it wouldn't make them any less authoritative. God knows which books belong and which don't. All that matters is that Scripture is sufficient for salvation.

 

[RedDragon94]

It is, I would think anybody ought to see, impossible that religious claims that contradict one another entirely can both be true. Christianity says "Jesus is Son of God," Islam says "not so." Both cannot possibly be true. Islam says "Mohamed is the last prophet," and Mormons claim that there are prophets running around all over the US. Both cannot possibly be true.

You see, I don't think that those details are as important as what they may think about God or Jesus, or even the concept of faith. Theology matters more than the person speaking that theology. The theology a person speaks reveal who they are.

"Could have?" So what? And what does that say about the existence of God?

It could mean Jesus' ancestral line was there.

Quite the contrary -- lots and lots of people told me there was. Hell, everybody around me when I was growing believed (or thought the believed, which is quite different) in God. I, on the other hand, looked at those beliefs -- very specifically, what was claimed about the nature of God, what was claimed about what God wanted, and what the world actually looks like -- and came to my own conclusion. The contradictions were simply too profound to merit the slightest belief.

Some religious people are just too doctrinaire to care about what's important.

Okay: present that "obvious evidence."

Look in the mirror. God has sovereignty over nature. This means he was in control of every accident and every happenstance from the dawn of nature til now and will be in control of the future.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So because some people rejected it that means that the book isn't even canonical?

Try the corollary question: "so because some people accepted it, that means that the book is canonical?" It's the same question, after all.

Well, I could be wrong about the books of the Apocrypha as a protestant and it wouldn't make them any less authoritative. God knows which books belong and which don't.

You're making progress: if "God knows...which books belong and which don't" ... then the implication is that we do not.

All that matters is that Scripture is sufficient for salvation.

And now here is a subject on which I have written in my university career: if you believe that "Scripture is sufficient for salvation," tell me what that scripture says that salvation actually means. Start by using just the major books by Paul: Romans, I and II Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians.

 

[RedDragon94]

Try the corollary question: "so because some people accepted it, that means that the book is canonical?" It's the same question, after all.

Well, as far as I can tell a lot of people (the majority) do.

You're making progress: if "God knows...which books belong and which don't" ... then the implication is that we do not.

I don't need to. I own 1 Catholic Bible and a blu-million Protestant ones. They equally reveal God even though there are different books.

And now here is a subject on which I have written in my university career: if you believe that "Scripture is sufficient for salvation," tell me what that scripture says that salvation actually means. Start by using just the major books by Paul: Romans, I and II Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians.

Well, A person is justified by faith. But, recently I've been thinking that maybe a certain work does regenerate a person.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Look in the mirror. God has sovereignty over nature. This means he was in control of every accident and every happenstance from the dawn of nature til now and will be in control of the future.

Then do a little review of history -- all those accidents, happenstances and so forth -- and discover just how incredibly evil this God you think you believe in actually is. If you would like some hints at some of those accidents and happenstances (if you can't remember the Holocaust, the eruption of Vesuvius that destroyed whole cities, the mass murders, the wars, the plagues and pestilences, I'll be happy to provide you with some to consider).

 

[RedDragon94]

Then do a little review of history -- all those accidents, happenstances and so forth -- and discover just how incredibly evil this God you think you believe in actually is. If you would like some hints at some of those accidents and happenstances (if you can't remember the Holocaust, the eruption of Vesuvius that destroyed whole cities, the mass murders, the wars, the plagues and pestilences, I'll be happy to provide you with some to consider).

God does not owe us physical safety. If a person understands that this world isn't home, (like Dietrich Bonhoeffer) they freely lay down their right to be their own God.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well, as far as I can tell a lot of people (the majority) do.

Well, then, you are quite wrong. Sure, there are a lot of Christians, but as a percentage of all the people in the world, they are a minority. And it is also a fact that many in that Christian minority do not, in fact, believe all the junk in the bible is the "literal word of God." So, you can't tell, because you don't know.

I don't need to. I own 1 Catholic Bible and a blu-million Protestant ones. They equally reveal God even though there are different books.

I own quite a few more bibles than that, but when you say that they are "different" but "equally reveal God," can you tell me what you mean by "equally? I mean, if it's really equal, it seems unlikely that their should exist different versions of Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) let alone the many divisions and sects (about 38,000 at last count) that all have different viewpoints. How, exactly, is that equal?

Well, A person is justified by faith. But, recently I've been thinking that maybe a certain work does regenerate a person.

Faith doesn't justify at all. Perfect faith that allows you to slay, deny, disfellowship, excommunicate or in any other way abuse a fellow human condemns. And every "faith" I've ever seen permits one or more of those abuses.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God does not owe us physical safety. If a person understands that this world isn't home, (like Dietrich Bonhoeffer) they freely lay down their right to be their own God.

See Genesis. Just the first chapter will do. According to your scripture, this world is our home -- made specifically for us, and as it says right there "God saw that it was good."

Your theology needs some work, I think.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

God does not meet the criteria or definition for life, neither in science or philosophy.

What Is Life? | Issue 101 | Philosophy Now

So what is it then that makes God alive?

God cannot speak talk reproduce or interact in any direct tangible way, it's hopelessly locked away in people's minds to where a person needs to act as a proxy on behalf of God. In another word, playing entirely as the voice, hand, and ears of God.

So what is the demonstrable quality attributable to God alone, as being alive, communicable, and Interactive when the definition of life does not apply?

Since he created life as we know it and define it, by definition he transcends it.

 

[RedDragon94]

Well, then, you are quite wrong. Sure, there are a lot of Christians, but as a percentage of all the people in the world, they are a minority. And it is also a fact that many in that Christian minority do not, in fact, believe all the junk in the bible is the "literal word of God." So, you can't tell, because you don't know.

I meant the majority of Christians.

I own quite a few more bibles than that, but when you say that they are "different" but "equally reveal God," can you tell me what you mean by "equally?

They all reveal God's story, or his master plan.

I mean, if it's really equal, it seems unlikely that their should exist different versions of Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) let alone the many divisions and sects (about 38,000 at last count) that all have different viewpoints. How, exactly, is that equal?

The way I see it is they emphasize different things but they are in essence correct on the important things (the essentials).

Faith doesn't justify at all. Perfect faith that allows you to slay, deny, disfellowship, excommunicate or in any other way abuse a fellow human condemns. And every "faith" I've ever seen permits one or more of those abuses.

God will call into account every abuse and injustice over the course of history in the end. But the greatest injustice is to reject him.

 

[RedDragon94]

See Genesis. Just the first chapter will do. According to your scripture, this world is our home -- made specifically for us, and as it says right there "God saw that it was good."

Revelation 21:5

 

[RedDragon94]

And it is also a fact that many in that Christian minority do not, in fact, believe all the junk in the bible is the "literal word of God." So, you can't tell, because you don't know.

How do you know?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Well, then, you are quite wrong. Sure, there are a lot of Christians, but as a percentage of all the people in the world, they are a minority. And it is also a fact that many in that Christian minority do not, in fact, believe all the junk in the bible is the "literal word of God." So, you can't tell, because you don't know.

I own quite a few more bibles than that, but when you say that they are "different" but "equally reveal God," can you tell me what you mean by "equally? I mean, if it's really equal, it seems unlikely that their should exist different versions of Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) let alone the many divisions and sects (about 38,000 at last count) that all have different viewpoints. How, exactly, is that equal?

Faith doesn't justify at all. Perfect faith that allows you to slay, deny, disfellowship, excommunicate or in any other way abuse a fellow human condemns. And every "faith" I've ever seen permits one or more of those abuses.

Well the Bible is the #1 most popular, widely read, influential book in the history of humanity..

as you might expect from a divine creation.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well the Bible is the #1 most popular, widely read, influential book in the history of humanity..

as you might expect from a divine creation.

Actually, it might surprise you to learn how few people actually do read the Bible. I mean actually read the thing, all of it, as I have. Here is a quote from the magazine "Christianity Today" (just so that you don't think I'm citing atheist sources:

"Christians claim to believe the Bible is God's Word. We claim it's God's divinely inspired, inerrant message to us. Yet despite this, we aren't reading it. A recent LifeWay Research study found only 45 percent of those who regularly attend church read the Bible more than once a week. Over 40 percent of the people attending read their Bible occasionally, maybe once or twice a month. Almost 1 in 5 churchgoers say they never read the Bible—essentially the same number who read it every day."