Why is God alive?

[Trailblazer]

All that exists is or was created, subjected to causes and conditions. Is God created or subjected to cause and condition?

According to my religion, God is not created or subjected to anything but God, since God is one and alone, self-subsisting, above the need for any of His Creation:

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

God has always existed and God has never been without a Creation, which means that God’s Creation has always existed. That does not mean that humans have always existed because I believe in evolution and that humans evolved over time.

Humans cannot think in terms of anything but time, but time does not exist in a purely spiritual world. This is obviously a very difficult subject and it is not easily comprehended. Actually, I do not think it can be fully comprehended at all, it can only be approximated.

All we have at this time in history is what has been revealed by the latest Messenger of God, Baha’u’llah. He clarified what was revealed by the Prophets of old, which had been misapprehended.

Baha’is believe that revelation from God is a never ending process, so Messengers will continue to be sent by God for all eternity, as they have been sent from all eternity. Science and religion are both constantly evolving and as religion evolves, science evolves, since religion (owing to the Holy Spirit being released into the world) stimulates scientific achievement. Perhaps at some time in the future when mankind is more spiritually and scientifically evolved, a new Messenger of God will reveal more about this subject of creation.

Below are the two passages I am familiar with. There might be more written but not everything has been translated from Persian and Arabic into English yet. Moreover, I can barely grasp what these passages mean although I understand the gist. Science has never been my area of expertise although I find it fascinating. Many Baha’is are scientifically-minded so they might better understand the meaning of the second passage. If I get more questions about this I can run it past the Baha’is on other forums.

“As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.

As to those sayings, attributed to the Prophets of old, such as, “In the beginning was God; there was no creature to know Him,” and “The Lord was alone; with no one to adore Him,” the meaning of these and similar sayings is clear and evident, and should at no time be misapprehended. To this same truth bear witness these words which He hath revealed: “God was alone; there was none else besides Him. He will always remain what He hath ever been.” Every discerning eye will readily perceive that the Lord is now manifest, yet there is none to recognize His glory. By this is meant that the habitation wherein the Divine Being dwelleth is far above the reach and ken of any one besides Him. Whatsoever in the contingent world can either be expressed or apprehended, can never transgress the limits which, by its inherent nature, have been imposed upon it. God, alone, transcendeth such limitations. He, verily, is from everlasting. No peer or partner has been, or can ever be, joined with Him. No name can be compared with His Name. No pen can portray His nature, neither can any tongue depict His glory. He will, for ever, remain immeasurably exalted above any one except Himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 150-151

“As regards thine assertions about the beginning of creation, this is a matter on which conceptions vary by reason of the divergences in men’s thoughts and opinions. Wert thou to assert that it hath ever existed and shall continue to exist, it would be true; or wert thou to affirm the same concept as is mentioned in the sacred Scriptures, no doubt would there be about it, for it hath been revealed by God, the Lord of the worlds. Indeed He was a hidden treasure. This is a station that can never be described nor even alluded to. And in the station of ‘I did wish to make Myself known’, God was, and His creation had ever existed beneath His shelter from the beginning that hath no beginning, apart from its being preceded by a Firstness which cannot be regarded as firstness and originated by a Cause inscrutable even unto all men of learning.

That which hath been in existence had existed before, but not in the form thou seest today. The world of existence came into being through the heat generated from the interaction between the active force and that which is its recipient. These two are the same, yet they are different. Thus doth the Great Announcement inform thee about this glorious structure. Such as communicate the generating influence and such as receive its impact are indeed created through the irresistible Word of God which is the Cause of the entire creation, while all else besides His Word are but the creatures and the effects thereof. Verily thy Lord is the Expounder, the All-Wise.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140

 

[RedDragon94]

Look around you. The facts play itself out.

No God has ever said or done anything whatsoever.

No, just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not there. If you have ever hit a deer on the highway it makes sense to you. You're just not looking in the right place.

If humans were silent, so would God, if humans make noise, then God makes "noise", if people do things, then God "does" things.

To the contrary, sometimes God speaks and we don't hear him because our head is up our butts. Other times people try to define truth for themselves and end up screwing everything up in their lives. God is in control, but he's not responsible for people's failure to do right. He commands them to do right.

The hand of God only "moves" when people do things in God's name giving God "substance".

Non-religious people can do good things just as well as religious people. God is in control of all people ultimately, but he doesn't have salvific relationships with everyone. People who are non-religious can express love. But that's only a result of God's prevenient grace.

God cannot do anything otherwise because he's for all intents and purposes, a mental puppet with strings with people acting out the voice, hands, ears, and eyes.

It's true that there are people who try to be godly. How is that proof that there is no God?

It's actually more the other way around in my view. God speaks and people simply reproduce what he said. If anything I'm the puppet.

God is factually not alive,

Because God isn't what you want him to be?

No matter what anybody says or does, whether it be you, your pastor, other clergy, lay, whomever, no matter how hard you try, plead, or persist, the hard fact is God will never, ever be actually "alive" without your help.

Oh no, he doesn't need me. He can hold his own. And I don't know you personally either but, I know that the almighty doesn't need a person like me to do anything. He owns it all. If anything, without him we can't be alive because he created and sustains the world & cosmos.

The strange thing is people make it out to be otherwise hence my question what makes God alive.

Because God is a personal being, not a force.

God simply does not meet the definition of independent automatity that is conducive with life aside from humans giving God "life" themselves, and touting that God is alive.

A living, personal, and almighty God is not required to be your servant. Quite the opposite.

 

[Twilight Hue]

No, just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not there. If you have ever hit a deer on the highway it makes sense to you. You're just not looking in the right place.[\quote]

********And where is that right place? I'm guessing that it's somewhere inside yourself. Your own heart or mind maybe?

Thats fine. God is considered alive inside you I'm thinking. But you will never find any living God in tangible reality which makes it pretty clear God only remains alive in the cerebellar realm. -NM- ******

To the contrary, sometimes God speaks and we don't hear him because our head is up our butts. Other times people try to define truth for themselves and end up screwing everything up in their lives. God is in control, but he's not responsible for people's failure to do right. He commands them to do right.

Non-religious people can do good things just as well as religious people. God is in control of all people ultimately, but he doesn't have salvific relationships with everyone. People who are non-religious can express love. But that's only a result of God's prevenient grace.

It's true that there are people who try to be godly. How is that proof that there is no God?

It's actually more the other way around in my view. God speaks and people simply reproduce what he said. If anything I'm the puppet.

Because God isn't what you want him to be?

Oh no, he doesn't need me. He can hold his own. And I don't know you personally either but, I know that the almighty doesn't need a person like me to do anything. He owns it all. If anything, without him we can't be alive because he created and sustains the world & cosmos.

Because God is a personal being, not a force.

A living, personal, and almighty God is not required to be your servant. Quite the opposite.

*****The rest of the rebuttal only comes from you. Not God. God just isn't alive outside the mind. That's why I say God is a nonliving puppet.

It's because God lives inside your head and is perfectly alive talking Etc that you projected out into tangible reality when there is no such thing. If God was alive you wouldn't have needed to speak for him. -NM- *****

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what is it then that makes God alive?

God is the source of all Life, when you do not have God, it is Death.

So in life it can be asked, why do we choose death in knowledge that is not based in God?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

No, just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not there. If you have ever hit a deer on the highway it makes sense to you. You're just not looking in the right place.

To the contrary, sometimes God speaks and we don't hear him because our head is up our butts. Other times people try to define truth for themselves and end up screwing everything up in their lives. God is in control, but he's not responsible for people's failure to do right. He commands them to do right.

Non-religious people can do good things just as well as religious people. God is in control of all people ultimately, but he doesn't have salvific relationships with everyone. People who are non-religious can express love. But that's only a result of God's prevenient grace.

It's true that there are people who try to be godly. How is that proof that there is no God?

It's actually more the other way around in my view. God speaks and people simply reproduce what he said. If anything I'm the puppet.

Because God isn't what you want him to be?

Oh no, he doesn't need me. He can hold his own. And I don't know you personally either but, I know that the almighty doesn't need a person like me to do anything. He owns it all. If anything, without him we can't be alive because he created and sustains the world & cosmos.

Because God is a personal being, not a force.

A living, personal, and almighty God is not required to be your servant. Quite the opposite.

I loved your post!
There is nothing in your post that I can disagree with... I love it when that happens.

 

[Grandliseur]

God cannot speak talk reproduce or interact in any direct tangible way, it's hopelessly locked away in people's minds to where a person needs to act as a proxy on behalf of God.

This is simply not true.

He can interact any which way he chooses to. He is not locked away.
If, however, something less than ant in size and importance of the scale of things universal believes that God wants to change his diapers and handle his wet dreams for him, that microscopic life should rethink his importance in the scale of things.

God interacts with us usually by telling us what he wants from us - this is done by communicating with the whole group by the medium of choice in ancient times which still serves, namely, his inspired writings. There you can see what you need to do so as not to be wiped out at the next cleansing, and so as not to be marked for destruction once you die naturally. Here destruction is eternal destruction, for death is temporary destruction where you still exist on his database awaiting judgment.

He answers prayers of the righteous by saving acts according to need.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is simply not true.

He can interact any which way he chooses to. He is not locked away.
If, however, something less than ant in size and importance of the scale of things universal believes that God wants to change his diapers and handle his wet dreams for him, that microscopic life should rethink his importance in the scale of things.

God interacts with us usually by telling us what he wants from us - this is done by communicating with the whole group by the medium of choice in ancient times which still serves, namely, his inspired writings. There you can see what you need to do so as not to be wiped out at the next cleansing, and so as not to be marked for destruction once you die naturally. Here destruction is eternal destruction, for death is temporary destruction where you still exist on his database awaiting judgment.

He answers prayers of the righteous by saving acts according to need.

So God is essentially a book, a bunch of written words from the cerebral mind. A case of anthropomorphism referred to as the "Living" Word giving various scriptures a quality it doesn't really have aside from relaying those ideas that come from the mind.

Anyways, what exactly is regarded as the medium of choice today? I really don't see anything of that sort going on.

God clearly can't speak, show himself or interact in any type of manner shape or form so it's always going to be locked away in books and in people's minds.

I suppose in a matter of speaking God can be technically alive in somebody's mind. After all I think people created God in the first place. What better reality is in the world that the mind creates? Only one problem with it, and thats involving issues of claiming there is a Living God outside of what's in the mind and written down on pieces of paper. Nothing happens past that there's no activity anywhere, and the universe is indifferent.

You know, the actuality and matter as it stands is with tangible, as opposed to cerebral reality, for which God will never ever speak, or say, or do anything whatsoever in the actual physical world. There is no question that's its the case as it stands.

No matter how hard people look or try, it will always come from the people themselves pulling the strings that makes God "talk", and "do".

Maybe alive in a person's mind, but clearly nonliving everywhere else.

 

[Grandliseur]

So God is essentially a book, a bunch of written words from the cerebral mind. A case of anthropomorphism referred to as the "Living" Word giving various scriptures a quality it doesn't really have aside from relaying those ideas that come from the mind.

Anyways, what exactly is regarded as the medium of choice today? I really don't see anything of that sort going on.

God clearly can't speak, show himself or interact in any type of manner shape or form so it's always going to be locked away in books and in people's minds.

I suppose in a matter of speaking God can be technically alive in somebody's mind. After all I think people created God in the first place. What better reality is in the world that the mind creates? Only one problem with it, and thats involving issues of claiming there is a Living God outside of what's in the mind and written down on pieces of paper. Nothing happens past that there's no activity anywhere, and the universe is indifferent.

You know, the actuality and matter as it stands is with tangible, as opposed to cerebral reality, for which God will never ever speak, or say, or do anything whatsoever in the actual physical world. There is no question that's its the case as it stands.

No matter how hard people look or try, it will always come from the people themselves pulling the strings that makes God "talk", and "do".

Maybe alive in a person's mind, but clearly nonliving everywhere else.

When his miracles of the past are brushed aside, healings, resurrections, the parting of the red sea, the destruction of Sodom, etc. - then you come to your conclusion. This also means that you discount him creating the universe, this solar system, and the earth's various kinds of life, including man.

Your belief system cannot lead to anything, especially not the salvation promised - if by this impotent god of your views. That is your choice, not mine.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Based upon... What?

Based upon the perennial Sunday School question: "If God could talk to those people in the Bible, why has He stopped talking to us?"

And it's a perceptive question, by the way, answerable only with evasion and prevarication.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Gods inability to do anything without the help of a human being in some shape fashion or manner.

I'd like to know how you know that for a fact.

For the incredibly simple reason that if anybody, any Christian, anywhere in the world, could produce some evidence of God actually doing something that could not have been accomplished without the help of a human in some shape, fashion or manner, it would already have overtaken every press release ever. And guess what -- it's never happened.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Based upon the perennial Sunday School question: "If God could talk to those people in the Bible, why has He stopped talking to us?"

And it's a perceptive question, by the way, answerable only with evasion and prevarication.

Exactly.

For the longest time I remember I was content with hearing Pastor sermons and scripture reading. Parishioners acting out as if God is something that is alive and clearly communicating and interacting as well as ever, when in all actuality there is really no such thing going on except within their minds.

I think God lives and is alive only because one's mind can imagine it, to which gives one's deity of choice a " life" of its own that plays out in the head, and becomes integrated into the tangible world by embellishing events and forces that occur in nature and cases involving various circumstances.

The universe and world serves like a backdrop or stage for a persons mental puppeteering skills to have God go about "doing" and "saying" things that further reinforces the illusions of a living and interactive deity.

It took a long time for me to realize, that God is essentially a being on strings that lives and is active in the mind, yet entirely and completely dead and silent in the world.

Some people can live with that fact, some people can't.

 

[Twilight Hue]

For the incredibly simple reason that if anybody, any Christian, anywhere in the world, could produce some evidence of God actually doing something that could not have been accomplished without the help of a human in some shape, fashion or manner, it would already have overtaken every press release ever. And guess what -- it's never happened.

If that ever did happen, I'd have no problem with becoming a theist again.

I remember how empty Christianity became for me as realization grew year-to-year that for all practical intents and purposes, there is actually no living independent God around.

I think what things got the ball rolling, was the day when I came across this verse and it stuck....

Psalms 115:5.


This certainly can be applied to God as well in a spectacular twist of irony. It was the beginning of the end for my theistic beliefs and realization that God is actually not alive.

I don't consider a bad thing, I'm actually glad it happened.

 

[RedDragon94]

Hey if you don't want to talk shut up.

 

[RedDragon94]

"If God could talk to those people in the Bible, why has He stopped talking to us?"

The canon's closed. Next question.

 

[RedDragon94]

For the incredibly simple reason that if anybody, any Christian, anywhere in the world, could produce some evidence of God actually doing something that could not have been accomplished without the help of a human in some shape, fashion or manner, it would already have overtaken every press release ever. And guess what -- it's never happened.

You deny the evidence. The Bible is evidence, Israel is evidence, Christians are evidence. Heck, religion itself is evidence.

 

[Srivijaya]

Hi Trailblazer,
Having read the seven valleys and the four valleys many years ago, I have a lot of respect for the teachings of Bahaullah. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. There are a few points, which I'll pick up on.

According to my religion, God is not created or subjected to anything ... eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things,

Humans cannot think in terms of anything but time, but time does not exist in a purely spiritual world. This is obviously a very difficult subject and it is not easily comprehended.

...‘I did wish to make Myself known’, God was, and His creation had ever existed beneath His shelter from the beginning that hath no beginning, apart from its being preceded by a Firstness which cannot be regarded as firstness and originated by a Cause inscrutable even unto all men of learning.

Certainly, the Bahia's concede that any category, description or concept of God is inadequate, that we simply don't have the frames of reference to grasp God. This is very unusual among Abrahamic theists, who are quite adamant that they can and do know God; even to what he thinks, wants, dislikes etc.

They have no problem in reducing God to a knowable, limited concept which they will not have questioned. In this way they fashion God in their own image. Would you therefore agree that any theist doing this is guilty of idolatry?[/QUOTE]

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi Srivijaya,

I am new to this forum, since last week. I decided to come here because I left the primary forum I have been posting on for the last four years. My long sordid story on another thread here: #43 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 9:31 PM

Anyhow, I have not yet learned how to get around here. I still post on other forums so I have not had time to contact the staff here yet and figure out how this forum works.

I just picked a few threads that were active and responded to comments people made. I have been getting e-mail notifications from all the three threads I had posted on but for some reason I did not get one for your post. I only caught your post by accident, but I am glad I found it.

I see you are fairly new to this forum too.

Hi Trailblazer,
Having read the seven valleys and the four valleys many years ago, I have a lot of respect for the teachings of Bahaullah. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. There are a few points, which I'll pick up on.

Certainly, the Bahia's concede that any category, description or concept of God is inadequate, that we simply don't have the frames of reference to grasp God. This is very unusual among Abrahamic theists, who are quite adamant that they can and do know God; even to what he thinks, wants, dislikes etc.

I guess you are referring to Christians? I do not know much about Judaism or Islam. I do not think that either one of them claims to know what God thinks, wants, dislikes etc. but I could be wrong. To be clear, Baha’is claim we can know the Attributes (Qualities) of God and the Will of God for any given age in history. It is the Essence (Intrinsic Nature) of God we say that we can never know.

Baha’is do believe in a personal God. Shoghi Effendi, Guardian of the Baha’i Faith and one of the appointed interpreters of the Writings of Baha’u’llah, explains what is meant by personal God, according to the Baha’i teachings.

Shoghi Effendi writes: What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith

They have no problem in reducing God to a knowable, limited concept which they will not have questioned. In this way they fashion God in their own image. Would you therefore agree that any theist doing this is guilty of idolatry?

I agree that anyone who makes God in their own image is guilty of idolatry. I will repeat what I always say to people who ask: God can ONLY be known through His Manifestations (also referred to as Messengers, Prophets) who are perfect mirror images of God. What they say or write about God is the only accurate information we can ever have about God. Moreover, all their acts and doings are identical with the Will of God, so whatever they ordain perfectly represents the Will of God.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle...

The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 166-167

 

[Srivijaya]

I see you are fairly new to this forum too.

That's right. I like the way that there is a breadth of discussion across all traditions and none. I have encountered at least one more Baha'i here, so you should be in good company.

I guess you are referring to Christians?

Muslims too. Both can be very dogmatic and certain about God. Conveniently enough it always seems that "God" supports their own prejudices.

Shoghi Effendi writes: What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_the_Bahá'í_Faith#cite_note-18

Thank you for mentioning Shoghi Effendi. That is a name I have not heard in many years - kind of like the last Jedi of the Baha'i faith. He has some interesting and profound things to say. He dismisses any kind of anthropomorphism or any limits the human imagination can conjure up, which puts him light years ahead of most theists in my opinion.

The notion of a personal God is also crucial but I think open to interpretation. All theists claim this and depending on how its defined, I would agree - and that coming from someone who says that God doesn't exist! My take on the issue is Monist and non-dual, which may go some way to explaining why I agree with Nowhere Man's premise in the OP.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The canon's closed. Next question.

Oh, yes? When, exactly, did the canon close,and who closed it, and on what authority? (If you're counting, that's 3 next questions.)

 

[RedDragon94]

When, exactly, did the canon close

When the book of Revelation was completed.

and who closed it

God.

and on what authority

He can do whatever he wants.