Why is Christ's sacrifice needed?

[Faithofchristian]

Yep. Crucial point.



God says: we should not tell them good and evil becauase they woule know what we know Genesis 3:22 (I guess that assumes it would make them god)

Adam and eve where ignorant of those two words



We are going by the same bible. There are no hypothetical unless youte making a point? Be direct.



Blaming the serpent is like saying, "no. Dad. I didnt do it. 'He' made me do it" type of thing. The parents are responsible for their childrens actions. The serpant should have not been in the garden to begin with.



Yes. Parents are responsible for their children. For example, if a child was not taught to not get into a strangers car, and he did and was raped, who would you blame?

1. The ignorant child
2. The driver
3. The parent

The driver is just an outside party. If the parent told the child why not to ride with strangers and what it means to be hurt and kidnapped, the child can make a more intellegent decision whether or not to take the ride.

Adam and eve did not have that advantage of foreknowledge before they took the fruit.

That is a problem. The serpant didnt raise the child. God did.

All blessings and curses come from one source. Everyone else are just characters in a movie: satan included.



Redirection and defensiveness??

Just saying

1. Parent takes care or child
2. Child does wrong, the responsibility and blame is on the caretaker

It would be benefitial for the caretaker to educate her children.

If you have children do you let them touch the stove, kick them out the house when they touch it, then years later teach them not to touch the stove when the error could have been prevented with just a little education?

That...

And if your child was depressed etc because he is in an abusive home, should child services blame the child or you the parent?

As to how do you know for sure that Adam and Eve were ignorant of those words, guess you were there, to make such a statement.

What makes you think that Adam and Eve did not know about death ?

Adam and Eve saw many animals die. So they were a customer to seeing death.

Adam and Eve had not yet have eternal life. Had they took of the tree of life and then Adam and Eve would had eternal life.

But as it was Adam and Eve never took of the tree of Life, this why God said, lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of Life and live for ever.
Therefore Adam and Eve did not take of the tree of life, to have eternal life yet.
Therefore Adam and Eve knew what death was, seeing animals die.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

For record, here are the positions.

https://www.theopedia.com/atonement-of-christ

Yes, thank you for sharing. That is very helpful.

It's interesting that the early church fathers thought the ransom in the ransom theory was paid to Satan.

Early Christians were still ironing out the finer details of what they believed. It happens in pretty well every religion. It's the nature of humans to start hammering everything down into a surer framework straight away.

Buddhism had such debates early on. The Mahayana and Theravada divide represent some of the more fundamental matters we can't agree on.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As to how do you know for sure that Adam and Eve were ignorant of those words, guess you were there, to make such a statement.

Unless you dont believe your own bible:

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Genesis 3:22

Adam and eve cannot know information that god withheld from them. They need to Know the words good, evil, wrong, right, etc

In order to a. Know the consequences and b. learn from their actions

If you asking more questions than statements, are you just believing in the bible for what you have faith in but dont know is true...

Is the bible info facts to you?

Using "but how do you know..." statements doesnt help further the convo

 

[Faithofchristian]

Unless you dont believe your own bible:

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Genesis 3:22

Adam and eve cannot know information that god withheld from them. They need to Know the words good, evil, wrong, right, etc

In order to a. Know the consequences and b. learn from their actions

If you asking more questions than statements, are you just believing in the bible for what you have faith in but dont know is true...

Is the bible info facts to you?

Using "but how do you know..." statements doesnt help further the convo

No guess maybe you should read it the right way
God said -- less he put forth his hand and take of the tree of Life and be like us knowing good and evil and live for ever. Genesis 3:22
Therefore Adam and Eve did not take of the tree of Life.

Why would God need to put Cherubim's to guard the tree of Life, to keep Adam and Eve from taking from the tree of Life.
If Adam and Eve already did take from the tree of Life.
Why not before the fact and not after the fact.
Genesis 3:23-24.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

God said -- less he put forth his hand and take of the tree of Life and be like us knowing good and evil and live for ever. Genesis 3:22

Who is 'us' in this statement?

Why would God need to put Cherubim's to guard the tree of Life, to keep Adam and Eve from taking from the tree of Life.

What I want to know is where are these cherubim guarding this tree of life now? Surely we could have found wherever on earth this is with all our modern technology.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No guess maybe you should read it the right way
God said -- less he put forth his hand and take of the tree of Life and be like us knowing good and evil and live for ever. Genesis 3:22
Therefore Adam and Eve did not take of the tree of Life.

Why would God need to put Cherubim's to guard the tree of Life, to keep Adam and Eve from taking from the tree of Life.
If Adam and Eve already did take from the tree of Life.
Why not before the fact and not after the fact.
Genesis 3:23-24.

Thats my point. He didnt tell them. He prevented them from knowing.

If they knew good and evil (if they were not prevented from eating from the tree), they would have foreknowledge and would not disobey because they Know it is wrong.

They disobeyed because god did not give them the option of taking from the tree of life: he withheld morality so adam and eve were ignorant.

When you have an ignorant child who disobeys, the child has consequences for his Actions. But the consequence in this case was not from the actions, it was from the center of humanity's being: their connection with god.

That isnt a tap on the back of the hand punishment.

I can see if they were told they could eat from the tree of life, and having already the knowledge of good and evil, they Still disobeyed (as in future scenes where people were killed disobeying god: but they Knew beforehand) then I can see them deserving punishment biblically.

But I dont see how this type of punishment is equal to ignorance.

 

[Phantasman]

And that's arguable because murder as a sin hadn't been established yet. Cain is getting busted after the fact.

Also, what we learn is that righteousness is rewarded by God with murder, while the perp gets off scot free and can go become founder of civilization.

If you get really deep, the first sin performed is the lie "If you eat from this you will die". But that wasn't man sinning.

If you are orthodox you will never see nor accept it. I know, as a former orthodox minister for 20 years.

John 8:
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The false god tried to keep Adam and Eve as slaves. He didn't want them to see anything but him. He lied to man from the start. He was the first to murder, and continued to do so throughout the OT. The true God (the Father) has never murdered. Why would one make a commandment not to murder, then go and murder? What then about lying?

If you believe that the false god IS the same Father Jesus taught, then you will never see it. The false god fooled the Jews (into killing the son). Orthodoxy teaches no different. The church has murdered many, physically and spiritually..

If you find problems with what god does, it usually always points to the false god who is the angel of light, misleading many.

My view through seeking.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Thats my point. He didnt tell them. He prevented them from knowing.

If they knew good and evil (if they were not prevented from eating from the tree), they would have foreknowledge and would not disobey because they Know it is wrong.

They disobeyed because god did not give them the option of taking from the tree of life: he withheld morality so adam and eve were ignorant.

When you have an ignorant child who disobeys, the child has consequences for his Actions. But the consequence in this case was not from the actions, it was from the center of humanity's being: their connection with god.

That isnt a tap on the back of the hand punishment.

I can see if they were told they could eat from the tree of life, and having already the knowledge of good and evil, they Still disobeyed (as in future scenes where people were killed disobeying god: but they Knew beforehand) then I can see them deserving punishment biblically.

But I dont see how this type of punishment is equal to ignorance.

Maybe you should read it again

Look, Genesis 3:22--"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

Therefore Adam and Eve knew what good and evil was.
So how is it that you say Adam and Eve didn't know.

 

[james bond]

Early Christians were still ironing out the finer details of what they believed. It happens in pretty well every religion. It's the nature of humans to start hammering everything down into a surer framework straight away.

Buddhism had such debates early on. The Mahayana and Theravada schism represent some of the more fundamental matters we couldn't agree on.

I think you're right. Before the internet, it was more difficult to ascertain the best interpretations and what interpretations were way off base. I went to parochial school, and left feeling guilty and rebelling after seven years. Mostly, we had religious TV shows and movies. A speaker could convince others by just being consistent and presenting the Bible in a clear, concise manner. They sound credible and their audience is listening. We still have that today on TV late night-early morning programming. They're teaching believers and newcomers, and spreading a mainstream message, but also promoting their DVDs. I think the ones who send hate messages are the most alarming, but don't think people listen to them. They do get media coverage though. To me, the idea that Jesus paid ransom to Satan sounds like the work of the devil. Yet, it does fit with what happens when bad guys kidnap someone and demand ransom. One message is spiritual which I think is the correct interpretation. The other is more real world and may or may not reflect what is meant.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

To me, the idea that Jesus paid ransom to Satan sounds like the work of the devil.

I think that view is probably based on the Christian notion that Satan took rule of this world after the fall.

CS Lewis tried to present this view in a fictional context in his Narnia books. That even though the law was from God, Satan was the ruler that exacted the blood price. You'll remember that in the Narnia books, if you ever read them- Aslan paid his life to Jadis.

Interestingly, I guess this means Lewis held that view of the atonement.

Lewis seems to have presented it as some idea that Satan could only use God's law to practice his tyranny over things. Or for ease, elected to use God's law to hold criminals guilty by.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Maybe you should read it again

Look, Genesis 3:22--"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

Therefore Adam and Eve knew what good and evil was.
So how is it that you say Adam and Eve didn't know.

Its in multiple translations

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I cant read the thous and thows.

They must Not eat from the tree.

The verse you quoted is a consequence to a thought or action.

Example: if I let my sister eat from the cake, least I put it in the fridge so she can have a peace, she shall surely become sick.

So, I will not let my sister eat the cake or she shall surely die.

The reason they were left ignorant (unknowing) is that god felt it was in their best interest to not know morality as he, god, knows it. If god gave his children the knowledge to eat from the tree of life they would surely be like god. God is jeleous. No one is his equal.

Have you heard the saying: what you dont know doesnt kill you; or hear no evil, say no evil?

Same concept. Ignorance is bliss.

If adam and eve ate from the tree of life, Then they would know good and evil.

After knowing morality as god knows it, if they disobeyed, then, the punishment fits the "crime."

Eternal seperation from ignorance is not equal. Where in scripture does it say adam and eve knew morality without first eating the tree of life?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

According to the Bible/your interpretation of it, maybe.

Yes...we're talking about sin, coming through Adam. Are there other documents that discuss the subject?

So animals and then a human sacrifice is what God's Justice demands?

'Demands'? I think 'requires' is a better word. After all, God is holding Himself to the same standards as He holds us to. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth. But sin just doesn't make your teeth fall out; it makes you die. So, a perfect human life needed to be given, to correspond to the perfect human life Adam lost for us...Adam could no longer pass on genetic perfection to his offspring, us.

Since we experience, and are basically enslaved to, the genetic results of sin -- sickness and death -- through no fault of our own, Jehovah asked His only-begotten Son, Jesus, to provide the corresponding sacrifice. And he willingly did.

"Think of all that Jehovah did to make it possible for us to be his friends. Because we are descendants of Adam and Eve, we sin. And those who sin deserve death. (Romans 6:23) But because God loved us so much, he wanted to save us from sin and death. So he sent his beloved Son, Jesus, from heaven to be born as a perfect human and die for our sins. And Jesus was happy to do what his Father wanted and to sacrifice his life for us. (John 10:17, 18) Then Jehovah resurrected Jesus to life in heaven. It was in heaven that Jesus presented to Jehovah the value of his sacrifice. This sacrifice, or ransom, saves from eternal death all those who repent of their sins.—Read Hebrews 9:14, 24."

Excerpt from: Jehovah Is “the God Who Gives Peace” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[sayak83]

Its in multiple translations

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I cant read the thous and thows.

They must Not eat from the tree.

The verse you quoted is a consequence to a thought or action.

Example: if I let my sister eat from the cake, least I put it in the fridge so she can have a peace, she shall surely become sick.

So, I will not let my sister eat the cake or she shall surely die.

The reason they were left ignorant (unknowing) is that god felt it was in their best interest to not know morality as he, god, knows it. If god gave his children the knowledge to eat from the tree of life they would surely be like god. God is jeleous. No one is his equal.

Have you heard the saying: what you dont know doesnt kill you; or hear no evil, say no evil?

Same concept. Ignorance is bliss.

If adam and eve ate from the tree of life, Then they would know good and evil.

After knowing morality as god knows it, if they disobeyed, then, the punishment fits the "crime."

Eternal seperation from ignorance is not equal. Where in scripture does it say adam and eve knew morality without first eating the tree of life?

Tree of knowledge.

 

[sayak83]

Then, why didn't the NT writers simply write "Immanuel" in place of the name Jesus? I mean, wouldn't that give it more credibility, stating Immanuel was his name as the Messiah?

Or maybe there's something else to it, that you quite don't grasp.

You know, Isaac Newton studied the Bible "daily", and found no contradictions, in fact, he called the Bible, 'more accurate and harmonious than any other writing."

So maybe what you and other skeptics call contradictions...it only indicates that y'all misunderstand it?

Or do you think you're more astute, in spiritual matters, than Newton?

Yes. Newton was absolutely hopeless crank when it came to Bible. He thought it was filled with secret codes which he repeatedly tried and failed to decipher. He was brilliant but highly eccentric, vicious, petty and cruel man.

 

[sayak83]

Yes...we're talking about sin, coming through Adam. Are there other documents that discuss the subject?



'Demands'? I think 'requires' is a better word. After all, God is holding Himself to the same standards as He holds us to. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth. But sin just doesn't make your teeth fall out; it makes you die. So, a perfect human life needed to be given, to correspond to the perfect human life Adam lost for us...Adam could no longer pass on genetic perfection to his offspring, us.

Since we experience, and are basically enslaved to, the genetic results of sin -- sickness and death -- through no fault of our own, Jehovah asked His only-begotten Son, Jesus, to provide the corresponding sacrifice. And he willingly did.

"Think of all that Jehovah did to make it possible for us to be his friends. Because we are descendants of Adam and Eve, we sin. And those who sin deserve death. (Romans 6:23) But because God loved us so much, he wanted to save us from sin and death. So he sent his beloved Son, Jesus, from heaven to be born as a perfect human and die for our sins. And Jesus was happy to do what his Father wanted and to sacrifice his life for us. (John 10:17, 18) Then Jehovah resurrected Jesus to life in heaven. It was in heaven that Jesus presented to Jehovah the value of his sacrifice. This sacrifice, or ransom, saves from eternal death all those who repent of their sins.—Read Hebrews 9:14, 24."

Excerpt from: Jehovah Is “the God Who Gives Peace” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The concept of God you worship is Evil. There is no other way to say it. Why would we want to worship an evil being who calls himself God?

Also please explain the mechanism by which sin makes one die, and why God can't or won't prevent it from happening free of any charge or expectations?

 

[sayak83]

Then, why didn't the NT writers simply write "Immanuel" in place of the name Jesus? I mean, wouldn't that give it more credibility, stating Immanuel was his name as the Messiah?

Or maybe there's something else to it, that you quite don't grasp.

You know, Isaac Newton studied the Bible "daily", and found no contradictions, in fact, he called the Bible, 'more accurate and harmonious than any other writing."

So maybe what you and other skeptics call contradictions...it only indicates that y'all misunderstand it?

Or do you think you're more astute, in spiritual matters, than Newton?

Jesus called himself Jesus, that is why.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Then, why didn't the NT writers simply write "Immanuel" in place of the name Jesus?

Immanuel is not Jesus when mentioned in Isaiah. He is a child that was born as a sign to King Ahaz. Isaiah 8 tells you the woman brought forth the child foretold in Chapter 7, and what became of him.

Immanuel was a sign to Ahaz that God had not abandoned his house, according to Isaiah's plain reading. Christians often pull prophecies out of the Tanakh where there are none.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

He was...... vicious, petty and cruel man.

Source?

 

[Shia Islam]

Someone posted a thread about Jesus' sacrifice being, in their view, the "biggest problem of Christianity".
I thought I'd reply with a thread containing a link that helps to explain it.

No one can grasp the reason behind Jesus' sacrifice, without first recognizing the position that Adam, as our forefather, put all of us in: growing old, getting sick, and then dying. (This was not God's purpose for mankind.) We inherited sin from Adam and Eve. And 'sin leads to death.' --Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23

Keeping this in mind, here's a link providing information to think about:

Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

First I must say that I respect all the people "of the book" who adhere to the teachings of their religions..

Then, it is always good to hear the other viewpoint..

In this matter, Shia Islam present a view that is certainly of interest to the Christians...

We, the Shiites especially, have Imam Hussain..
The grandson of our prophet who sacrificed himself and most of his family members and friends to end the "ISIL" of his time, or the so called "the Umayyad Caliphate"..

We emphasize that the family of the prophet intercede for the salvation of the believers..

With their intercession, God will forgive our sins..
They are the most beloved creatures to God..
And God will accept their intercession..
There is no need for them to be sacrificed for us to be saved!

As of Adam's sin, we believe that Adam is an infallible prophet..
And he does not commit sins..

Yes he has done an act that someone like him should not do..
however God forgave him..
And for those who have gained more knowledge about Shia Islam, I will say that God forgave after Adam asked him by the names of the prophet family!

Then, we believe that in God's plan before the creation of Adam is that Adam will live in the Earth..and Human will occupy earth for thousands of years before they will either inherit Paradise or will be doomed because of their denial of the truth and because of their heinous crimes..

And yes, the acts of the father will affect the offsprings, however we don't believe that a sin is something that can be inherited..if you has committed a sin, it is your problem and you are responsible for it, not your innocent child!

 

[sayak83]

Source?

Why Was Isaac Newton Such A Jerk?

Isaac Newton's occult studies - Wikipedia