Why is Christ's sacrifice needed?

[Thief]

Someone posted a thread about Jesus' sacrifice being, in their view, the "biggest problem of Christianity".
I thought I'd reply with a thread containing a link that helps to explain it.

No one can grasp the reason behind Jesus' sacrifice, without first recognizing the position that Adam, as our forefather, put all of us in: growing old, getting sick, and then dying. (This was not God's purpose for mankind.) We inherited sin from Adam and Eve. And 'sin leads to death.' --Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23

Keeping this in mind, here's a link providing information to think about:

Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I don't follow Christian faith as a Christian
I don't read Genesis as a tale of condemnation

I do find it noteworthy.....sin.....in another language means....
without

so....we are born in sin

we are born without God

salvation is found in the parables.....no where else

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Perhaps you can ask Him one day.

Why is it you religious types seem to think that this specious, claptrap, "I'm so clever" garbage constitutes a valid reply to ANYTHING?

 

[Faithofchristian]

So everyone after Adam is being punished for what Adam did? This doesn't sound just.

Nope, not at all, sin and death, entered the world because of Adam's sin, then sin and death pass upon all humans.

Each human are held responsible for what they do and not what their parents do.

But however, Parents are held responsible for what their children do, up to Adulthood,
Then once the child becomes adult, the Parents are no longer considered to be held responsible for what they do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nope, not at all, sin and death, entered the world because of Adam's sin, then sin and death pass upon all humans.

Each human are held responsible for what they do and not what their parents do.

Ah... so it's our own doing, but because of something passed down from Adam.

So which is it?

- is God unable to stop "sin and death" from passing down from parent to child? Or...
- is God unwilling to stop it?

 

[Fool]

Someone posted a thread about Jesus' sacrifice being, in their view, the "biggest problem of Christianity".
I thought I'd reply with a thread containing a link that helps to explain it.

No one can grasp the reason behind Jesus' sacrifice, without first recognizing the position that Adam, as our forefather, put all of us in: growing old, getting sick, and then dying. (This was not God's purpose for mankind.) We inherited sin from Adam and Eve. And 'sin leads to death.' --Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23

Keeping this in mind, here's a link providing information to think about:

Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Mark 12:33
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”


Hebrews 10:8
First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Ah... so it's our own doing, but because of something passed down from Adam.

So which is it?

- is God unable to stop "sin and death" from passing down from parent to child? Or...
- is God unwilling to stop it?

Why are you not stopping yourself from sin. So don't blame God, when you, yourself are not doing anything to stop yourself from sinning.

Just because Adam sin, does not mean you have to.
Look there was Cain and Able.
Able made the choice not to sin.
Where as Cain made the choice to sin.

The same with you, You can either make the choice to sin or not to sin.

But as it is, humans always want to blame someone else, for their down fall.

As did Adam, when God ask Adam, Then Adam tried to put the blame over on Eve.
Then God went to Eve and ask her, Then Eve put the blame on the serpent.

So humans haven't changed at all, still looking for someone else to blame, for their down fall.

Instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.

 

[Foxic]

"Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."

- Robert A Heinlein

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Why is it you religious types seem to think that this specious, claptrap, "I'm so clever" garbage constitutes a valid reply to ANYTHING?

It's our way of saying, "Have a nice day." It sounds so much nicer than, "You're hopeless."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why are you not stopping yourself from sin. So don't blame God, when you, yourself are not doing anything to stop yourself from sinning.
Just because Adam sin, does not mean you have to.
Look there was Cain and Able.
Able made the choice not to sin.
Where as Cain made the choice to sin.

The same with you, You can either make the choice to sin or not to sin.

But as it is, humans always want to blame someone else, for their down fall.

As did Adam, when God ask Adam, Then Adam tried to put the blame over on Eve.
Then God went to Eve and ask her, Then Eve put the blame on the serpent.

So humans haven't changed at all, still looking for someone else to blame, for their down fall.

Instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.

I think you and @Hockeycowboy need to decide between you what Christians are supposed to believe. I was responding to his claim that humanity inherited sin and death from Adam.

If you believe something else, fine, but please understand that the conversation you inserted yourself into was about considering the implications of that specific idea.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Another way that it makes no sense: typically, a sacrifice is something of value that belongs to the person making the sacrifice. Part of the idea behind a sacrifice is that you're giving up some of your wealth.

Jesus wasn't anybody's property he isn't dead (according to the story), so he seems to not work as a sacrifice in either of those respects. His death wasn't "giving up wealth" for any person.

Has anyone replied (intellectually) to this? I keep thinking this is a very good point but never heard or seen a christian address it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I think you and @Hockeycowboy need to decide between you what Christians are supposed to believe. I was responding to his claim that humanity inherited sin and death from Adam.

If you believe something else, fine, but please understand that the conversation you inserted yourself into was about considering the implications of that specific idea.

Your right, that Humanity inherited sin from Adam.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Much in the same way an angry, abusive human's anger needs to be, hmmm?

God continues to seem to have been made in man's image rather than the other way around, for the deity is always portrayed as having weak human emotions. I suppose primitive minds were incapable of creating a deity that was more god-like, which begs the question, apologetics aside, as to why people would believe in or admire such a flawed deific construct.

Funny you would say that. I am learning in art history that the romans, unlike say the Euphesians, believed in gods but the gods were only that because they were eternal. They have human flaws just they dont die. Its different than other people whose gods were defined by divinity and temples and timbs dedicated to them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your right, that Humanity inherited sin from Adam.

And as I was getting at, God was either unable or unwilling to stop this from happening.

 

[james bond]

So everyone after Adam is being punished for what Adam did? This doesn't sound just.

“Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned” Romans 5:12

It's a question many, including other Christians and myself, have asked. The best answer is Adam's sin caused the spiritually dead to arrive. So, it's not like a physical state, but a spiritual state. When we are born, we are born physically alive, but spiritually dead.

One of the things we admire is perfection and God is like that. Also, many like shows like the Walking Dead. While these shows are science fiction, maybe there's something there that leads us to those things, too. The last part isn't in the official explanation. It's JMO and I threw it in as bonus.

 

[Faithofchristian]

And as I was getting at, God was either unable or unwilling to stop this from happening.

Why should God stop Adam, When in fact God already told Adam ahead of time, not to partake of the tree.
Now it's all on Adam whether to obey God or not.
Its evidence that Adam chosen not to obey God.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Sin came before Adam and Eve,

According to Romans 5:12..."through one man sin entered....and death spread to all men".

Was that "one man", Adam ? Yes, because of Genesis 3:20. So Adam would be the father of everyone.

 

[Fool]

According to Romans 5:12..."through one man sin entered....and death spread to all men".

Was that "one man", Adam ? Yes, because of Genesis 3:20. So Adam would be the father of everyone.

adam was the first carnal man, or man of the earth. having fallen asleep in the grave, he would have become unconscious of his pre-existence, or his eternal state of existence; which isn't as a man, or an earthling.


John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

this is the pre-existence

Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

this then is the post-existence

John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And if anyone would like to argue that the Garden story is somehow different, note that the Garden story never mentions sin, original sin, the fall of man, disobedience, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer, or anything of that sort.

The Genesis account doesn't tell us who was behind the serpent, either. It's not until we read John 8:44 and Revelation 12:9, that we find out with any surety.

Ezekiel 18 lets us know that accountability is everyone's responsibility, you can't blame your actions on anyone else.

As far as sin being inherited, i.e., genetic, Psalms 51:5 indicates that.

We need to use the whole Bible, all 66 books, in order to understand and explain it, even small things sometimes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why should God stop Adam, When in fact God already told Adam ahead of time, not to partake of the tree.
Now it's all on Adam whether to obey God or not.
Its evidence that Adam chosen not to obey God.

The "inheritance," not Adam. In God's design, "sin" can be transmitted from parent to child like some sort of virus. Was this feature of God's design an intended feature or not? Can God correct it or not?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But what if humans didn't inherit sin from Adam and Eve? What if their sin was on them alone? That would surely be more in keeping with a Just God?

But apparently, it is, and eventually -- sometimes immediately, at birth even -- leads to death. Look at both sentences in Isaiah 33:24.

The article from the link I posted, noted it's God's justice that needs to be met. That was why the Israelites had all those sacrifices, leading up to the annual Day of Atonement. Hebrews 9:22 offers an interesting perspective on it. And all those ancient Israelite sacrifices, in some way or another, foreshadowed Jesus' perfect sacrifice.

And here is another way we know that our imperfect nature is inherited: All of our sin, being inherited, came from "one man" (Romans 5:12), so what was needed was only 'one man's' sacrifice. Otherwise, there'd have to be a corresponding sacrifice for each person who ever lived!

Scientists have noted that our telomeres, on our chromosomes, get shorter and shorter, as we age. What if perfect DNA results in our telomeres never getting shorter? I don't know.

We have no idea what perfect DNA looks like. But Adam and Eve would never have died, if they had just kept listening to God. (If they had never disobeyed that easy-to-follow command, they'd still be alive today!)

Thanks for your reasonable question, I appreciate your "lack of antagonism". I.e., your friendliness.

If this reply sounds 'disjointed', I'm sorry. I didn't get any sleep.