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Featured Why is Christ's sacrifice needed?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hockeycowboy, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Someone posted a thread about Jesus' sacrifice being, in their view, the "biggest problem of Christianity".
    I thought I'd reply with a thread containing a link that helps to explain it.

    No one can grasp the reason behind Jesus' sacrifice, without first recognizing the position that Adam, as our forefather, put all of us in: growing old, getting sick, and then dying. (This was not God's purpose for mankind.) We inherited sin from Adam and Eve. And 'sin leads to death.' --Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23

    Keeping this in mind, here's a link providing information to think about:

    Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
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  2. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    Oh cool. Two threads in the same forum about the same thing should be fun.
     
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  3. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    I guess I view the whole thing differently from a gnosis perspective,

    Sin came before Adam and Eve, They were imperfect created by an imperfect god. Once they received the spirit from the perfect Father, it opened the path to true life. To achieve perfect life one must die to the imperfect flesh through being born of spirit (water baptism). This allow us to be led and become sons (daughters) of God through the Holy Spirit (fire baptism). When the flesh gives up this spirit/Spirit, we are perfect of the Father, sinless and obtain the Fathers gifts, heaven.

    Jesus showed us what the word Christ means, and how death relates to it. John 6:63

    Jesus only sacrifice was leaving perfection (heaven) to live imperfect for our sake. Painful compared to the place he came from.
     
  4. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    It's very simple, God's wrath needs to be appeased.
     
  5. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    @Hockeycowboy there's only one view of atonement Christology I'm favorable toward- and that because it's not nearly as morbid: Christos Vector.

    Christos Vector is positive and affirming about the event and doesn't really emphasize the sacrificial aspect. From this view, Christ destroyed death and the grave with the crucifixion act. It's one of the five historical atonement positions accepted as orthodox by mainline Christians.

    The one I take most issue with. I think many non-Christians do- the vicarious atonement understanding favored by most Protestants. There is something really ugly and unappealing about such a stance. I am sorry if that sounds irreverent. That is how it is likely to appear to a non-Christian.

    The imagery is just so bloody and full of suffering, and that's what the vicarious interpretation focuses directly on.

    Frankly, the romanticizing of the crucifixion imagery itself that Protestants often engage in and attempts to paint it as beautiful- just appear really odd to an outsider.
     
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  6. Foxic

    Foxic Member

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    Much in the same way an angry, abusive human's anger needs to be, hmmm?

    God continues to seem to have been made in man's image rather than the other way around, for the deity is always portrayed as having weak human emotions. I suppose primitive minds were incapable of creating a deity that was more god-like, which begs the question, apologetics aside, as to why people would believe in or admire such a flawed deific construct.
     
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  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Paul obviously hadn't read the Tanakh. It states clearly and at length that sin can't be inherited

    Ezekiel 18
    1 The word of the LORD came to me again:
    2."What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
    3. As I live, says the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
    4. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die. 5."If a man is righteous and does what is lawful and right--
    6. if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of impurity,
    7. does not oppress any one, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment,
    8. does not lend at interest or take any increase, withholds his hand from iniquity, executes true justice between man and man,
    9. walks in my statutes, and is careful to observe my ordinances--he is righteous, he shall surely live, says the Lord GOD. 10 "If he begets a son who is a robber, a shedder of blood, 11. who does none of these duties, but eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, 12. oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination,
    13. lends at interest, and takes increase; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominable things; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself. 14. "But if this man begets a son who sees all the sins which his father has done, and fears, and does not do likewise,
    15. who does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, 16. does not wrong any one, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 17. withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no interest or increase, observes my ordinances, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live.
    18. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity. 19. "Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is lawful and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live.
    20. The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21. "But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live. 23. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? [...]
    30."Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD.​

    And if anyone would like to argue that the Garden story is somehow different, note that the Garden story never mentions sin, original sin, the fall of man, disobedience, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer, or anything of that sort. Instead it states very clearly why God chucked Adam and Eve out of the Garden:

    Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"-- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden [...]​
     
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  8. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Adam and Eve decided to live in dualism. Where there is life there is death. Live with it.
     
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  9. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    It seems to me that Jesus' sacrifice was to bring the wine: life continues after this body, and the bread: the body is not life, is mind and subject to it.
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Sammasambuddha

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    If it's not god's purpose to be like this, than why put it to where such an event would happen?

    That's like if I had a child and put him in a playpen with a knife, it's not my doing because I didn't give the knife to him. Then, he picks up the knife and cuts himself leaving a scar that last even up to age. He tells his family, and his family family, and the "scar" goes through history as the worse event of the child's life as the memories aren't ceased since the "first cut."

    Then, years later (pretend I can live longer than a hundred) I decide that my family, family family, family has suffered from these cut-memories for a long time. So, in order to help with this, I need to have another child who can share in the cuts of all of my family's generations. Once they see this child cut herself by placing another knife in the playpin, the current family can see that it was "their" fault not their mine (their mother's). It takes their guilt of blaming the mother to blaming their first sibling.

    Never did they think about the mother placing the knife in the playpen to begin with because all they know of life are the memories of pain from their first sibling. They don't know their mother as the first sibling did; so, the only way they can get rid of their emotional and guilty painful memories causing them to do same actions as their other siblings is to follow the example of this new sibling and the same thing this new sibling did that will block out the reason why the first sibling took the knife and cut himself.

    The new generation of families are blinded by the truth because all they can mirror and understand is the role of their siblings. So, when

    toi be contineud work
     
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  11. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    Just because you want to inherit this self-degrading concept and apply it to yourself doesn't mean it applies to us all.

    What need would a god have for wrath? He's so powerful, yet so petty that he has a reputation as being wrathful? Are we talking about a god, or a steroid-buffed muscle head?
     
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  12. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Perhaps you can ask Him one day.
     
  13. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Indeed.
     
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  14. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    So everyone after Adam is being punished for what Adam did? This doesn't sound just.
     
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  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The concept of Jesus being the "final sacrifice" I believe is a theological construct that makes no sense literally but can make sense figuratively.

    The sacrificial system allowed for only some animals and grains to be used, plus there's simply no provision for human sacrifices. So, at the literal level, it makes no sense.

    And if Jesus is viewed as being God, how is it that God supposedly can be sacrificed to God? But if viewed symbolically, it can be rendered as a "sacrifice" of sorts.
     
  16. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    I didn't care for school much, not crazy about gym, hated tests. Turns out, really good idea.
     
  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Another way that it makes no sense: typically, a sacrifice is something of value that belongs to the person making the sacrifice. Part of the idea behind a sacrifice is that you're giving up some of your wealth.

    Jesus wasn't anybody's property he isn't dead (according to the story), so he seems to not work as a sacrifice in either of those respects. His death wasn't "giving up wealth" for any person.
     
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  18. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    The Romans rounded up a bunch of "religious terrorists" and Jesus got rounded up too. The End.

    So everything A&E ate prior to sinning stayed alive through the digestive tract?

    By blaming the kids for lack of parenting skills.
     
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  19. Mikail

    Mikail New Member

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    But what if humans didn't inherit sin from Adam and Eve? What if their sin was on them alone? That would surely be more in keeping with a Just God?
     
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  20. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    2 + 2 = 3 is a sin. But it can be corrected. Unfortunately, very likely not until the attempt to apply it.
     
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