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Why is a man's sexual sins the woman's responsibility?

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Well everyone is entitled to their own preferences.
It’s just that I find the American approach to teaching sexuality wholly immature and unrealistic. No offence
We probably are in agreement as to the influence of porn and its easy availability, and which I think has been a disaster purely from being uncontrolled, given that it has seemingly been defended as freedom of expression but is probably more allied to profit and capitalism without regard to the affects and especially leaching into younger lives.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I was just watching a video on the lies Purity Culture teaches.

I have a relative who was raised in such a household, and she was in such despair over the whole idea of going from being under her father's thumb to being under her husband's thumb, that she thought as a teenager that she would simply refuse to ever marry. Thank goodness after she was out of the home, she became her own independent person, and felt good enough about things to take the marriage plunge with a good man who doesn't think he owns her.

I'm thinking about all the women in afghanistan, who have been told that they are incapable of being part of the new government. I don't know about you, but I imagine things will be just as hellish for women under the Taliban now, as they were the first time around.

But let's try to focus this post. In many traditional societies, it seems like men are considered too weak to control their own sexuality. It becomes the responsibility of women to never tempt them by looking pretty. No, you got to hide your stuff. All the modesty rules are designed for women. In Orthodox Judaism, a woman can't even SING outside her family, lest it lead a man astray.

I just find this ridiculous. Not only is it grossly unfair to women, laying rules upon us that are impracticle, and even soul-killing, but it treats men as if they have no moral strength. Well I don't accept that. I think men are perfectly capable of, i.e., not raping women who show cleavage.

What do you think?
Because religions and the mores were designed by men. Eve doesn't even get credit for original sin!


Romans 5:12-2

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I was just watching a video on the lies Purity Culture teaches.

I have a relative who was raised in such a household, and she was in such despair over the whole idea of going from being under her father's thumb to being under her husband's thumb, that she thought as a teenager that she would simply refuse to ever marry. Thank goodness after she was out of the home, she became her own independent person, and felt good enough about things to take the marriage plunge with a good man who doesn't think he owns her.

I'm thinking about all the women in afghanistan, who have been told that they are incapable of being part of the new government. I don't know about you, but I imagine things will be just as hellish for women under the Taliban now, as they were the first time around.

But let's try to focus this post. In many traditional societies, it seems like men are considered too weak to control their own sexuality. It becomes the responsibility of women to never tempt them by looking pretty. No, you got to hide your stuff. All the modesty rules are designed for women. In Orthodox Judaism, a woman can't even SING outside her family, lest it lead a man astray.

I just find this ridiculous. Not only is it grossly unfair to women, laying rules upon us that are impracticle, and even soul-killing, but it treats men as if they have no moral strength. Well I don't accept that. I think men are perfectly capable of, i.e., not raping women who show cleavage.

What do you think?

I coincidentally had a question the other day about Abrahamic religion and sexuality, but I forgot what it was, I think it might have been related. Annoying to forget things

I think maybe the Christian end of spectrum, in modern times, ended up with that side of argument. Though if I recall, there may have been some kind of passage from Paul about veiling, it must have been considered superfluous enough to be forgotten of in the centuries the came after. And it indeed, Jesus himself blames the man or women lusting for the lust itself, which would conflict heavily with any notion that the individual lustee would need to send up barriers of control. It is the responsibility, in the christian view, of the luster simply not to lust
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
It is the mindset, not one's clothes that is the problem.

Women can wear what they want, so can men, Consent is the issue and mutual respect - we need respect for the opposite sex. don't need 'rules' for dress codes. We need children (boys in particular) being taught consent and manners and respect
I think I have been misunderstood. Politeness does vary from place to place. I don't mean to imply otherwise. If I am impolite that is on me. If you are impolite it is on you. I'm not responsible for what you do. You are responsible for your actions, regardless of whether I am polite or not.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I’m afraid to ask but what porn are you watching? Not going to lie but American porn is so chaste and boring half the time. Hell, the libertine movement even puts it to shame and they were big in the 1700s
Although in fairness to the actors it probably just looks better on camera to have uhhh everything shaved. Clarity and all that.
Which reminds me.
Sex workers rights are human rights. We should do our best to ensure they have unions and fair working conditions. Right?
And there are certain activities where hair can get in the way. And yes, unions, fair working conditions. And even such providers as "Only Fans" are good things for the industry and the workers.

Back to the OP, unfortunately certain religious groups still treat women as property. And the more "orthodox" a group is the older their mentality seems to be. Islam is about five hundred years behind mainstream Judaism and Christianity. Somehow they need to be brought into the twenty first century.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
I'm thinking about all the women in afghanistan, who have been told that they are incapable of being part of the new government.
Just how many women do you think want to be part of the government?
In many traditional societies, it seems like men are considered too weak to control their own sexuality.
Such as? Proof? Examples?
All the modesty rules are designed for women.
Where? Proof? Example?
In Orthodox Judaism, a woman can't even SING outside her family, lest it lead a man astray.
Nor can they in Islam if men hear them, but that doesn't say anything about how there are no rules for men.
I just find this ridiculous. Not only is it grossly unfair to women, laying rules upon us that are impracticle
Because... It is only practical to go outside to sing? It is practical to wear high heels? It is practical to put on make up, wash it off, put it on, wash it off, dye your hair, dye it again, paint your nails, remover the paint. I'm afraid I can't see anything practical in all that. Maybe you had something else in mind?
and even soul-killin
The soul is not fed by all the abovementioned either. What does feed the soul?
but it treats men as if they have no moral strength.
Proof?
Well I don't accept that. I think men are perfectly capable of, i.e., not raping women who show cleavage.

What do you think?
I think you have gone from one topic to another and this last "conclusion" does not conclude your post at all. It leaves it missing some important points, proofs and examples.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
I was just watching a video on the lies Purity Culture teaches.

I have a relative who was raised in such a household, and she was in such despair over the whole idea of going from being under her father's thumb to being under her husband's thumb, that she thought as a teenager that she would simply refuse to ever marry. Thank goodness after she was out of the home, she became her own independent person, and felt good enough about things to take the marriage plunge with a good man who doesn't think he owns her.

I'm thinking about all the women in afghanistan, who have been told that they are incapable of being part of the new government. I don't know about you, but I imagine things will be just as hellish for women under the Taliban now, as they were the first time around.

But let's try to focus this post. In many traditional societies, it seems like men are considered too weak to control their own sexuality. It becomes the responsibility of women to never tempt them by looking pretty. No, you got to hide your stuff. All the modesty rules are designed for women. In Orthodox Judaism, a woman can't even SING outside her family, lest it lead a man astray.

I just find this ridiculous. Not only is it grossly unfair to women, laying rules upon us that are impracticle, and even soul-killing, but it treats men as if they have no moral strength. Well I don't accept that. I think men are perfectly capable of, i.e., not raping women who show cleavage.

What do you think?
To be fair, the school I attended also required the boys to dress "modestly". We had to wear long sleeves and long pants and so on.
I think there's a big difference between trying to look pretty and trying to look sexy.
But then, what guys find sexy varies a lot too.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I was just watching a video on the lies Purity Culture teaches.

I have a relative who was raised in such a household, and she was in such despair over the whole idea of going from being under her father's thumb to being under her husband's thumb, that she thought as a teenager that she would simply refuse to ever marry. Thank goodness after she was out of the home, she became her own independent person, and felt good enough about things to take the marriage plunge with a good man who doesn't think he owns her.

I'm thinking about all the women in afghanistan, who have been told that they are incapable of being part of the new government. I don't know about you, but I imagine things will be just as hellish for women under the Taliban now, as they were the first time around.

But let's try to focus this post. In many traditional societies, it seems like men are considered too weak to control their own sexuality. It becomes the responsibility of women to never tempt them by looking pretty. No, you got to hide your stuff. All the modesty rules are designed for women. In Orthodox Judaism, a woman can't even SING outside her family, lest it lead a man astray.

I just find this ridiculous. Not only is it grossly unfair to women, laying rules upon us that are impracticle, and even soul-killing, but it treats men as if they have no moral strength. Well I don't accept that. I think men are perfectly capable of, i.e., not raping women who show cleavage.

What do you think?

I oftentimes question why there's any such thing as "sexual sins" at all. Men should be able to control their own actions and refrain from doing violence to women - there's never any excuse for that. But they may not be able to keep their thoughts pure all the time. There might be lusting and coveting and drooling - that sort of thing. But men were also kept under strict rules as well, regarding what they could and could not do. Even lustful thoughts were considered a sin, so they had to control themselves, too - at least until they were legally married.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm thinking about all the women in afghanistan, who have been told that they are incapable of being part of the new government.
Just as a side note, Margaret Thatcher also wanted a political cabinet full of men.

But let's try to focus this post. In many traditional societies, it seems like men are considered too weak to control their own sexuality. It becomes the responsibility of women to never tempt them by looking pretty. No, you got to hide your stuff. All the modesty rules are designed for women. In Orthodox Judaism, a woman can't even SING outside her family, lest it lead a man astray.
As far as I am aware, in Orthodox Judaism and Islam there are modesty rules for men. I've read that long sleeved shirts are preferred to short sleeved ones in Haredi communities and many Chassidic men would rather swelter in the Israeli heat than take off their religious garb, their long black coats. They're equally barred from being with non-familial women in private, which requires co-operation from both sides.

I also find that men are not weak, as you say, but certainly young men haven't it easy. I find it's just decency to dress in a modest way, but it does more expressly fall on women because men tend to stare more at them than the other way around. Men can be attractive to women, but what seems to be universal experience is that men have the sexual urges worse, and I do believe that women should at least be attentive to this and dress reasonably, even just out of grace and courtesy. A woman wearing revealing clothing is, whether she likes it or not, saying 'Look at me, I'm an invitation.' That's pretty much the whole point of revealing clothing. I'm not saying women can't make an effort to look nice or presentable instead of dowdy, but there are things that are going to get her noticed by men. And especially if she's married, who is she trying to impress with her flowing hair and eye makeup? IMO wearing sultry clothing is degrading to oneself and others.

And I don't mean to become too graphic here, but many young men, especially now, are suffering with problems of masturbation and porn use. I can't imagine it's helpful to have to see half-naked women walking around when he's trying his level best to curb any indecent habits he may have, that he's feeling extremely ashamed of and feels he has no-one he can bear talking to about it, then he goes outside and he's confronted by even worse images than the ones he sees in his head. At this point, I don't think his sexual issues are totally his fault, because he lives in a society where he's going, "Ya akhi, my life is ruined! All I want to do is abuse myself and now my friend found all the porn on my phone, what should I do?!" and the response is, "Psh, it's fine, everyone does it." And he feels even more alone and worse, may himself fall into the trap of thinking these things are okay since he's surrounded by them. Thoughts lead to actions and in a frail, oversexualised world those actions are not the actions of decent and religiously inclined people imo.

This is not, imo, the religious way of life. Yes, I fully believe women do need to be aware of what they're doing. And it's also not just for men's sakes. I've found that I've felt much more comfortable after I completely re-invented my wardrobe and now it's full of longer/covering dresses and skirts. At first I disliked girly clothes a lot and wondered what was wrong with me, but then I discovered that there was nothing wrong with me - I just didn't feel comfortable showing off everything except what needs legally covering. Now I buy from Islamic websites and I feel so much better.

I just find this ridiculous. Not only is it grossly unfair to women, laying rules upon us that are impracticle, and even soul-killing, but it treats men as if they have no moral strength. Well I don't accept that. I think men are perfectly capable of, i.e., not raping women who show cleavage.
I don't find them impractical :shrug:

Sure, most men are capable of restraining themselves from raping women, but it's the thoughts themselves that need to be stopped as well. Covering and sex segregation go a long way to helping both sexes think of better things than sex all day.

What do you think?
I think I agree with the conservative side here.

“Follow not after a woman, and let her not take possession of thy heart."
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Those rules were made by men, especially irresponsible men who couldn't control themselves and had to blame that on the women. (Augustin and Mohamed being prime examples.)

What about the Jewish culture that is cited in the OP? Was Augustine or Mohammed involved in it?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I was just watching a video on the lies Purity Culture teaches.

I have a relative who was raised in such a household, and she was in such despair over the whole idea of going from being under her father's thumb to being under her husband's thumb, that she thought as a teenager that she would simply refuse to ever marry. Thank goodness after she was out of the home, she became her own independent person, and felt good enough about things to take the marriage plunge with a good man who doesn't think he owns her.

I'm thinking about all the women in afghanistan, who have been told that they are incapable of being part of the new government. I don't know about you, but I imagine things will be just as hellish for women under the Taliban now, as they were the first time around.

But let's try to focus this post. In many traditional societies, it seems like men are considered too weak to control their own sexuality. It becomes the responsibility of women to never tempt them by looking pretty. No, you got to hide your stuff. All the modesty rules are designed for women. In Orthodox Judaism, a woman can't even SING outside her family, lest it lead a man astray.

I just find this ridiculous. Not only is it grossly unfair to women, laying rules upon us that are impracticle, and even soul-killing, but it treats men as if they have no moral strength. Well I don't accept that. I think men are perfectly capable of, i.e., not raping women who show cleavage.

What do you think?

In my opinion, you are absolutely right.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
... it seems like men are considered too weak to control their own sexuality. It becomes the responsibility of women to never tempt them by looking pretty. No, you got to hide your stuff. All the modesty rules are designed for women. In Orthodox Judaism, a woman can't even SING outside her family, lest it lead a man astray.

I just find this ridiculous. Not only is it grossly unfair to women, laying rules upon us that are impracticle, and even soul-killing, but it treats men as if they have no moral strength. Well I don't accept that. I think men are perfectly capable of, i.e., not raping women who show cleavage.

What do you think?

I agree that men are capable, and if they do wrong things, they are guilty for their own actions. However, I think there is also some truth to it that some men do bad things. And because it is so, I think it is not bad to warn women of such things. Even though they are not necessary doing wrong thing, its result may be bad for them. That is why the rules are not in my opinion bad. Bad is that people do wrong things and unfortunately it seems many people don’t have moral strength.

But, even if men can resist temptations, is it loving to cause temptation to others?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Sure, most men are capable of restraining themselves from raping women, but it's the thoughts themselves that need to be stopped as well. Covering and sex segregation go a long way to helping both sexes think of better things than sex all day.

We should strive to consider other people, this is true: but it is not my job to thought police guys while I'm just trying to live my life.

You may like conservative and modest clothing, but I find most such things to be overbearing. If I have barre or yoga after school I'm going to wear leggings and a tank with sports bra. Sometimes without pads because the stupid things come out in the wash if you leave em in and I can't be bothered, because I shouldn't have to.

If someone has a porn addiction, policing women is not the way to go. We're just trying to live our lives. I think we should instead make the case for a better mental healthcare system for people with such problems.

There are also people with food addictions for instance, and it would be absurd to say "oh, you can't eat that donut here on the street corner. Someone might see it." Now I am not unsympathetic to people with addictions. I think we should care. I'm just saying going about it by policing other people is not a good response.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
There are also people with food addictions for instance, and it would be absurd to say "oh, you can't eat that donut here on the street corner. Someone might see it." Now I am not unsympathetic to people with addictions. I think we should care. I'm just saying going about it by policing other people is not a good response.
But I think this can go the other way: bringing a struggling alcoholic to a party full of alcohol is unfair and indecent imo. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to attend; it just means you can learn to party without drink, imo.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
But I think this can go the other way: bringing a struggling alcoholic to a party full of alcohol is unfair and indecent imo. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to attend; it just means you can learn to party without drink, imo.

This I agree with, and I've been in these situations where friends have chosen not to drink so someone could comfortably hang out.

These are our obligations to our friends, though. I think our obligations to the myriad needs of strangers on the street are more complicated. I don't think we have zero obligations of course; but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that we're not obliged to help them police their thoughts about sexuality when we are not doing something sexual (in the case of wearing activewear for instance).

Frank talks about seeing all these people walking around in fetishwear, I can't say that I've ever seen that. So I guess I'd need to see it to form a strong opinion about it because maybe what he's calling fetishwear I might just consider an alternative look: I can't be sure.
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
Frank talks about seeing all these people walking around in fetishwear, I can't say that I've ever seen that. So I guess I'd need to see it to form a strong opinion about it because maybe what he's calling fetishwear I might just consider an alternative look: I can't be sure.

Recently, we encountered someone wearing super short shorts that were full of large holes... and no underwear. I don't know if it was fetishwear or an alternative look...but I didn't really want my kids seeing that.

I think most of us know where to draw the line, though.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
What about the Jewish culture that is cited in the OP? Was Augustine or Mohammed involved in it?
Nope. Frankly, I don't know who was responsible in the Jewish culture, but I'm pretty sure it was a dude who didn't understand responsibility.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Recently, we encountered someone wearing super short shorts that were full of large holes... and no underwear. I don't know if it was fetishwear or an alternative look...but I didn't really want my kids seeing that.

I think most of us know where to draw the line, though.

I think if you can tell they don't have underwear due to holes and such that's also a hygiene concern if this person is sitting anywhere.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
There are also people with food addictions for instance, and it would be absurd to say "oh, you can't eat that donut here on the street corner. Someone might see it." Now I am not unsympathetic to people with addictions. I think we should care. I'm just saying going about it by policing other people is not a good response.
There are also people with alcohol addiction and in some states you can't drink your beer on the street corner because someone might see it.
For you that might be normal but for me as a European it always looks ridiculous when people drink from a paper bag. America - land of the free.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
This seems to come down ultimately to the usual debate about personal freedoms vs communal responsibilities and I fully believe we need more of the latter. I've likely been radicalised by the dump of a society in which I live.
 
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