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Featured Why is a man's sexual sins the woman's responsibility?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, Sep 12, 2021.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I was just watching a video on the lies Purity Culture teaches.

    I have a relative who was raised in such a household, and she was in such despair over the whole idea of going from being under her father's thumb to being under her husband's thumb, that she thought as a teenager that she would simply refuse to ever marry. Thank goodness after she was out of the home, she became her own independent person, and felt good enough about things to take the marriage plunge with a good man who doesn't think he owns her.

    I'm thinking about all the women in afghanistan, who have been told that they are incapable of being part of the new government. I don't know about you, but I imagine things will be just as hellish for women under the Taliban now, as they were the first time around.

    But let's try to focus this post. In many traditional societies, it seems like men are considered too weak to control their own sexuality. It becomes the responsibility of women to never tempt them by looking pretty. No, you got to hide your stuff. All the modesty rules are designed for women. In Orthodox Judaism, a woman can't even SING outside her family, lest it lead a man astray.

    I just find this ridiculous. Not only is it grossly unfair to women, laying rules upon us that are impracticle, and even soul-killing, but it treats men as if they have no moral strength. Well I don't accept that. I think men are perfectly capable of, i.e., not raping women who show cleavage.

    What do you think?
     
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  2. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Well-Known Member
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    I think it dishonors both genders...

    Raising women to think they are responsible for the behavior of others is severely overwhelming, and I would imagine all kinds of mental illnesses spring forward from it.

    Raising men to think others control their behaviors makes for weak men, who excuse their bad behavior by blaming others and never develop into the mature beings they could be.

    All around, this is bad.
     
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  3. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Men have to be responsible for what we do, women for what you do. This means that I think its fair to have rules about what woman and men may wear or do, but those rules should not blame them for what others do. For example if someone wears shorts it may be rude or impolite depending on where they are, but this does not cause anyone else to touch them or to do anything. If I wear shorts and this causes someone sensual discomfort then I am being impolite, but I'm not forcing them to attack me. If the rules say to wear full slacks and I break the rules then I should accept the fine or whatever for breaking dress code, but I won't accept responsibility if someone else tries to rape me for it. They have control of their limbs. I will prosecute them in court for any such impulsive action.

    There are a couple of good reasons. First of all by holding people responsible for their actions I empower them. I honor them. I show them respect. Secondly by holding people responsible for their actions I simplify due process. Its easier to measure justice.

    I can understand why there is a different point of view in tradition. People have not always had control of our choices. Often in the past we have left our moral choices up to masters and bosses. If they commanded, we killed, stole or did whatever on their orders; but the responsibility was theirs. This is from times past, times long ago. It is no longer the case. In modern times individuals are held responsible for our misdemeanors even if a boss orders it. In the past moral choice did not reside in the individual but in the leader, so justice was more complex.
     
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  4. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    The Muslims are making a great effort to control sexual urges. They cut off pubic hair to a certain distance. Give them a break!
     
  5. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    After 50+ years of marriage, I believe that men and women have the right to their own lives and bodies. And that both believe they have the right to nag each other about respective foibles and presumed shortcomings.
     
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  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I disagree. There are societies were humans don't wear so much as a lick of clothing, and its not considered immodest or rude.

    I have been told that men think about sex about every five second. I don't know it that's true (or at least if its true for all men). However, I think it is a way of saying that men are highly sexual in a way that women are not. I think men simply have to own this about themselves. Look guys, you are going to think about sex and not get it. That's uncomfortable, but its just part of life. You can't run away from it by asking women to hide ourselves as if we are not person with equal rights.
     
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  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I'm not sure how this brought up the pubic hair thing, but quite honestly, I am offended by this new craze to shave. I am not attracted to a man who looks like a child, and I am alarmed that ANYONE would be attracted to a person who looks like a child.
     
  8. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I think I have been misunderstood. Politeness does vary from place to place. I don't mean to imply otherwise. If I am impolite that is on me. If you are impolite it is on you. I'm not responsible for what you do. You are responsible, regardless of whether I am polite or not.
     
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  9. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Maybe this statement will be more to your liking.

    Sexual purity is at the forefront of religion.
     
  10. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    It’s all about control. Always has been. Now of course I can understand in certain social scenarios breaking dress code can be impolite (wearing a bikini to a fancy event) or even against health and safety regulations (no shirt, no shoes, no service.) But at least there’s some tangible reason for a dress code in those scenarios

    But otherwise to control a woman is to shame her about being a woman. And purity culture (regardless of religion) babies men. It is high time such a culture be a thing of the past, imho

    Now if someone wishes to dress modestly because that is what their religion teaches, then more power to them. I’m just saying I wouldn’t be sad if such restrictions were thrown away.
     
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  11. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    You won't be looking at much porn then, since it has been common for so many to get rid of all pubic hair, and some even go to the trouble of making their parts look neater, by surgery. Although this trend (hair removal) is perhaps not so dominant and might be being reversed.
     
  12. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Culture defined reason for clothes.

    Culture is based on climate conditions.

    We know we control our instincts. As we are not just sexual beings. Unlike animals behaviours as instinctive to nature by race causes. Species continuance.

    We teach and told ourselves original parents human naturally paired.

    So we then ask what changed.

    The earth's environment had.

    Science states once ice never existed.

    On earth we had a higher crystalline mass as stone. Near the sun with one climate no ice.

    Original human DNA life.

    Life changed as human science by design caused it to change.

    Hence we adapted by climatic causes.

    We know it is instinctive in hot climates to be bodily uncovered. Yet they live near water with lots of tree shade.

    Hot deserts own little tree coverage. Water underground. Cold nights.

    Humans condition behaviours to dress codes.

    Covering over in desert was versus irradiating heat when leaving your household. At home once they wore basic clothes covering. Against skin cancers or burnt heads...hair loss balding.

    Rational.

    Now it is used irrationally. Advice.

    As natives have little clothing. Partnerships natural.

    We live in winter in English countries very cold. We cover up.

    Summer we wear less clothing due to heat. Yet now we get medical taught cover up in summer sun is causing skin cancers.

    Is the same medical advice given in a science yet using medical terms for women.

    Women today getting lots of breast cancers. Ever think they were talking about medical awAre warnings other than superstitious male nonsense?
     
  13. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    Those rules were made by men, especially irresponsible men who couldn't control themselves and had to blame that on the women. (Augustin and Mohamed being prime examples.)
     
  14. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    I’m afraid to ask but what porn are you watching? Not going to lie but American porn is so chaste and boring half the time. Hell, the libertine movement even puts it to shame and they were big in the 1700s
    Although in fairness to the actors it probably just looks better on camera to have uhhh everything shaved. Clarity and all that.
    Which reminds me.
    Sex workers rights are human rights. We should do our best to ensure they have unions and fair working conditions. Right?
     
  15. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I'll assume you're exaggerating for effect. Women can sing outside of the family, just not for men.

    Given your background in Orthodoxy, you're probably also aware that there are modesty laws for men as well, just that most people are not that aware of them (is that our fault?).

    Again, you have background in Orthodoxy. Surely you're aware that ein apotropos la'arayot covers a wide range of possible situations, not just rape?

    Not too weak. Just untrustworthy. Hence the term "ein aportropos la'arayot" which refers to women as well (consider the story of Bruriah (which is debated whether it's real or not, because only Rashi brings it), where she succumbs to temptation. Sure, it was all a ruse - but she succumbed nonetheless. This would appear to make her untrustworthy as a wife). It's called taking precautions and being careful.

    Of course, there's also the flip-side: The importance of modesty in building a person's character.

    Side-note: The whole concept of modesty really emphasizes how much Judaism is not an individualistic religion, but a communal one, where Jews are responsible both for themselves and for those around them.
     
    #15 Harel13, Sep 13, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
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  16. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    Anything available via the open internet - as to adult material. Even the most popular websites - and usually it is is the more image-oriented ones rather than video ones that have such. But I have seen as much on the most popular video ones too - which to me is a problem. Given that we had the Pornhub trimming some months back when they found out some videos might not be of the age they seemingly aspired to. Can't comment on rights as to such since if one is over 18 then one should be allowed to do what one wants, but if one appears to be younger, oh dear ...
     
  17. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Fair enough.
    Anyone over 18 can watch whatever they please.
    I honestly don’t think teens are waiting until they hit 18 but that’s been the theme in humanity for all of human history I would imagine. I mean the age of consent being as high as it is in the West is actually relatively a new concept. Scary as that sounds.

    I am far more concerned about porn giving an unrealistic role model of sex to younger viewers. What looks good on camera is after all not necessarily healthy. Just my opinion
     
  18. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    I certainly agree with your last comment, and I should perhaps have added that my interests don't tend to coincide with the majority it seems - not finding large breasts that attractive - so perhaps I have to do more searching to find that which is pleasing (and hopefully just as legal).
     
  19. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Well everyone is entitled to their own preferences.
    It’s just that I find the American approach to teaching sexuality wholly immature and unrealistic. No offence
     
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  20. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    It is the mindset, not one's clothes that is the problem.

    Women can wear what they want, so can men, Consent is the issue and mutual respect - we need respect for the opposite sex. don't need 'rules' for dress codes. We need children (boys in particular) being taught consent and manners and respect
     
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