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Featured Why I do not think the marriage of A’isha and Muhammad was not wrong

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, Jun 2, 2018.

  1. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
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    I'm not sure anyone is arguing that paedophilia was culturally acceptable - ever. Marrying at a young age doesn't necessarily then imply that sexual relationships happened at such young ages. And neither does a very young age for marriage or no such limits. All it seems to say is that children in the past were just seen as the properties of their parents, to do with as they wished, and had little say in such matters. I've quoted elsewhere, when the age of consent was just 12 in the UK, very few (less than 2% of 1000 cases recorded) married at age 16 or younger - this was around 1600, when Shakespeare was alive. I think the early age of marriages, few that they were, can be understood in this context, and it hardly then says anything at all about paedophilia. I doubt we know enough about Muhammed and Aisha to comment much more.
     
  2. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    That quote might be The Most Wrong Thing On The Internet Ever.

    Almost all 'evil' is done by good people, and religion is but one of many potential reasons.
     
  3. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    It's also worth noting that arguments that focus on individual rights are anachronistic.

    As befits our evolutionary heritage, most historical societies practiced a form of collective rights i.e the group was more important than the individual. Enemy tribes certainly don't respect your right to life, freedom and the pursuit of happiness, so anything that weakens your tribe is an existential threat. Anyone in the tribe is can end up dead or enslaved in a heartbeat.

    Marriages were a way of cementing intra or inter tribal unity, giving multiple parties mutual self-interest and having something tangible at stake in the alliance. A marriage promised 8 years in the future, is a much less tangible bond than an actual marriage.

    In modern, urbanised times where the state, theoretically, protects you then such tribal moralities are clearly wrong and harmful as they serve no beneficial purpose. In pre-modern tribal society, in certain situations it could be viewed as a form of utilitarian ethics, greatest good for greater number of people. The practice certainly had some degree of justification beyond simply being 'evil'.

    Understanding of the past is rarely helped though moralistic posturing based on 21st C liberal humanist ethics that would basically require us to condemn every single person in pre-modern history as being an awful person.
     
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  4. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
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    In the context of something being backed by the ultimate authority often (religious doctrines), I doubt it can be seen as being the worst ever. It has some sense to it, if it is not necessarily true.
     
  5. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    I'm being hyperbolic, but I do really, really hate that quote.

    It would be just as "correct" if I replaced religion with science (another form of ultimate authority that has caused good people to do great harms in the mistaken belief they are doing good deeds).

    Then there is ideology, family, fear, love, poor judgement, etc., etc.

    The logic in another form:

    "Lego is an affront to human dignity. Without it, good feet would be free from pain, and bad feet would cause pain. But, for good feet to cause pain, that takes Lego." :D
     
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  6. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I somewhat agree, but all the same some cases of peadophilia that I learned of come to mind, and I find myself thinking that a significant factor may be that back in the day it was not considered polite to criticize other people's paedophilia, perhaps not unlike the current day taboo against criticizing the treatment of other people's spouses.
     
  7. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Uh... are you serious?
     
  8. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Yes it does, because the argument you're using to justify marriage to a child uses the logic of "it was culturally accepted at the time, so it wasn't wrong." Slavery was culturally accepted nearly everywhere in the world prior to the late 1800s, so using the same logic, slavery wasn't wrong then. See the problem?
     
  9. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    16, while probably too young, is much different than 9.
     
  10. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
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    Well, there is undoubtedly paedophilia as a factor even today for those underage marriages performed illegally, since children have died as a result of sex too early after being married very young (preteens). I don't think it ever was culturally accepted, apart from the teenage stuff by the Romans and Greeks, to any great extent though. Many paedophiles I have come across would like to make out that paedophilia was quite the norm in the past just based on the low or absent age of consent, which to me is just ridiculous. All it implies is that children were not seen to have any rights, and to be used as seen fit by their parents. Child prostitution was rife in the past but we have hardly got rid of this in many countries all around the world even today. Perhaps that was tolerated more than it is now - just being seen as a perversion, rather than the serious crime and exploitation that we now view it as,
     
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  11. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    But marriage leads to sex, yes?
     
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  12. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    I don't see much of a controversy here, people in Europe did the same in those times, what is controversial is a supposed messenger of a supposed god lacked the moral fibre to see marrying a child was absolutely wrong but hey a man made religion you can do whatever of course.
     
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  13. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    I live in an ignorant nation where the only people who know these rules exist are the ones who told politicians to let them have it. We actually did try to raise the age, can't remember if it was a state or federal suit, but it got shot down because "religious freedom" or some such nonsense.

    I thought sex was how you consummated the ceremony. Sometimes other people watched. That's even sicker.

    And lots of societies over time are now extinct. The bible praises this ethic and let's be real: Israel was never a stable nation.
     
  14. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Often. Just how often it used to lead to sex in the circunstances mentioned is difficult to say.
     
  15. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Am I being serious that it's a terrible quote because many things can make 'good people do evil things'? Yes, of course.
     
  16. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I thought better of you.
     
  17. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Do you believe that only religion can make good people do evil things?
     
  18. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    That's not really what it says.
    Yes, it is simplistic. But there is a profound truth there. It's certainly more accurate than "Without God there's no morality"
    Tom
     
  19. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    I dislike it as most "evil" things are done by "good" people, and most have nothing to do with religion (even though religion has been a significant factor in "good" people doing "evil" things).

    Evil things done for evil reasons are the anomaly, which is why I find it naive even as an aphorism (and many people don't seem treat it as an aphorism).
     
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  20. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    In actuality slavery was not culturally accepted in the universal sense because all animals have a sense of freedom which is why the indigenous Britain tribe during the Romans waged a guerilla war with the Roman empire. True that slavery was common but that doesn't mean it was culturally accepted which is different when Semitic tribes intermarry because there were multiple reasons why marriage in those times existed such as for dowries, bringing tribes together for mutual benefit etc...This is different than slavery which had more negative implications historically.
     
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