1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Why I do not think the marriage of A’isha and Muhammad was not wrong

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, Jun 2, 2018.

  1. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    20,259
    Ratings:
    +12,775
    Religion:
    None
    Without this aspect of the issue, Hadith is held up a life guide, it's just a story about ancient people. Lots of stuff happened back in the days that today would be considered heinous.

    Based on the story, Aisha did just fine, thank you. Muhammad made her a queen. Not some poor victim by any means. And since nobody's got her birth certificate or anything nobody really knows what happened when. For a 7th century Arabic warlord, Muhammad was a raging feminist. If he cherished Aisha as much as the stories say, he protected her from harm not abused her as a sex toy. A warlord like him could have hot and cold running slave girls, freely given by their fathers to curry favor. From his first marriage on throughout his life, Muhammad was not like most men in that culture. I see no reason to think that Aisha was any different. I simply don't believe that Muhammad violated her.

    The problem comes in when later guys justify abusive behavior with "Well, Muhammad had multiple 'wives', including 9 year olds. I am just following Hadith."
    It's the premise that Hadith is a guide to life in the modern world that is the moral issue, not the legends about Muhammad's marital life. If modern Muslims took Muhammad's ethics about feminism (egalitarianism really) as seriously as they do the details, the Islamic world would be much improved.
    Tom
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    25,627
    Ratings:
    +8,087
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian
    I partly agree except humanity is unchanged. It is too soon to decide things have moved on permanently as its easy to regress to barbarism.

    Pedophilia is an abnormal condition, but thats not what is really under the glass. Desire for young girls is typical across all cultures both historically and in modern times. Its not good for our times and not legal below 18 (or 16 in Europe). Mainly its illegal because of medical improvements and longer lifespans.

    It likely will be again. Hopefully not, but there is one of the reasons that its dangerous to think things have moved on. Thus it is important for Islam to be flexible, because it must suit both high tech and primitive times.
     
  3. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,687
    Ratings:
    +3,558
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    But what are those criticisms? Let us leave the word salad alone and discuss what are the issues?
     
  4. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,687
    Ratings:
    +3,558
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    We are discussing a marriage not what is written....These are traditions that have been iin the Semitic culture since forever.
     
  5. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,687
    Ratings:
    +3,558
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    What do you call Joseph who married Mary the mother of Jesus who is said to be 14?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,687
    Ratings:
    +3,558
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    I'm not trying to get into a moral equivalency debate here....
     
  7. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,687
    Ratings:
    +3,558
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    With all you have said I wonder if you have an idea just what the heck you just wrote.....
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,687
    Ratings:
    +3,558
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    Multiple marriage was not even an issue for Solomon, or David, or anyone else....
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,687
    Ratings:
    +3,558
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    We think its wrong now..Guaranteed someone in your family married young or had sex in their pre-teens
     
  10. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Messages:
    29,091
    Ratings:
    +14,868
    Religion:
    Beyond the Light
    My parents were both 17 years old.... when mom got pregnant and married soon after... (They were together for 61 years or so...)
     
  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    8,201
    Ratings:
    +6,152
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Up until relatively recent in human history there was no age limit placed on marriage and polygamy was considered normal. The make up of society was very different from these modern times.

    In more recent times monogamy has become the norm and an age of marriage established to ensure consenting adult are married and children are protected.

    As recently as 1880 in your country the legal age in most states in the USA was either 10 or 12 years old.

    Children and Youth in History | Age of Consent Laws [Table]

    I hear many Christians criticising Muhammad for polygamy and child marriage yet there are no laws in the bible that prohibit polygamy or restrict the age of marriage.

    A'isha despite her allegedly young age of marriage went on to become one of the outstanding women in the history of Islam.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Born-again Glompist
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    18,813
    Ratings:
    +9,618
    Religion:
    Metal
    I'm not sure what you mean. Which criticisms and issues are you asking about? And what are you referring to as a "word salad"?
     
  13. TheBannerofHomuraAkemi

    TheBannerofHomuraAkemi Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Messages:
    800
    Ratings:
    +371
    Religion:
    Madokaism
    Loli's are for head patting and not fapping!

    If Muhammad had only saw that meme. Ah oh well!
     
  14. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +466
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    Wonder away......
     
  15. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    30,348
    Ratings:
    +14,845
    Nor am I, I'm just saying the logic needs to be consistent. You can't say that sex with little kids was okay because it was an accepted social norm, but enslavement was not even though it too was an accepted social norm.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. beenie

    beenie Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    Messages:
    15,257
    Ratings:
    +1,052
    This is the best response in this entire thread. I agree with every single word of it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    3,199
    Ratings:
    +1,260
    Religion:
    Often the quickest path from ignorance to arrogance and/or condescension
    True, but I believe the young age of Aisha has been cited (by certain clerics) as being a reason for allowing the marrying of very young girls in some Muslim countries even if this is not a majority view. And some countries still have very young ages for marriage or no such age. Not confined to Islam though - just look at the USA for this - as mentioned by another.
     
    #37 Mock Turtle, Jun 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  18. The Emperor of Mankind

    The Emperor of Mankind Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Messages:
    6,417
    Ratings:
    +6,472
    Religion:
    Greek Paganism
    Exactly. This has ever been one of my pet peeves about Islamophilia. Islamic apologists doing this are trying to have their cake and eat it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    55,048
    Ratings:
    +13,573
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    This is wrong, for the most part.

    Historically, life expectancies were low mainly because of high infant mortality. Someone who survived to adulthood could usually be expected to have a long life. Not as long as today - I’m sure that deaths in people’s 30s and 40s were more common than they are now - but people would have been familiar with a significant number of people living into their 80s and 90s.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    9,889
    Ratings:
    +8,509
    Religion:
    none
    According to the same sources we know about Aisha's age from, we also 'know' that Adam lived to be 940 years old (he was also 90 feet tall). Abraham lived to a comparatively brief 169, and John the Baptist was the shortest lived of the prophets at a mere 95.
     
Loading...