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Featured Why I Could Never Be a Christian (or Muslim)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Apr 22, 2019.

  1. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    I know :)

    I just also like to point, when such comes up, that they are all exactly like all those other claims that haven't been made yet, but which certainly could be made in exactly the same way, with exactly the same motivations.

    Because that undetectable dragon appeared to me and shared with me a vision of how every human has an undetectable mythical beast following him/her around everywhere and make note of all your actions and decisions. These beasts then will function as your impartial spokesman when you are to be judged when you die. These beasts are assigned to you when you are born and they stay your compagnon for eternity. If you get to paradise, they become your mount (just imagine riding a dragon!!). On the other hand, if you are send to the basement, the beast will torture your forever.

    I should really compile this into a book one of these days.



    :D
     
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  2. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    There is good justification for belief in God.

    1, all through history mankind has worshiped a god or God. Just because they had different ones or percieved God differently, only shows minor differences, the core part is still there, that a God has always been a part of mankind.

    2, mankind has always had apparitions and heard audable voices of God or there gods through history, even up to now.

    3, near death experiences people have seen God as the light and God has spoken to them telapatheically. These testimonies are literally in the millions.

    4, we see evidence of Gods handywork in the order and exquisite design of our world.
     
  3. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Here is why:

    1, God has been around a long time, in fact theres never been a time he was not around. So, not only is his knowledge and wisdom perfect due to that, but its also perfect due to the fact that its inherent in him because he created everything, INCLUDING "IQ".

    It means God has no begining. He always existed. Eternal. It also means he is infinite in size. So, no thing can contain him.

    Basically, i sum it as God exists outside space/time to keep it short and sweet.

    Thats not always true and its especially not true in Gods case.

    I dont get how your percieving this.

    Because you want to have an open mind and you want to be humble AND you want to realize this God exists outside space/time and holds perfect knowledge. Also we have no rights in Gods kingdom. Everything are gifts.

    If you dont believe in God, why do you discuss his existence?

    Lol, you have to understand that God MADE morality. Also you have no rights in his kingdom.

    No, no, what im saying is i dont believe God eternally tortures people in hell. But, IF im wrong about that, i would be surprised, but i would not respond in a revolting way. Id respond in a humble, seeking to undrrstand why, type of way.

    You see? Why would i respond this way? First let me tell you why i would NOT respond this way. Its not because of FEAR. Its because id be so bewildered by it that i truely would want to know why he would torture them forever.

    Your failing to realize that God MADE morality. You did not make it. Also you fail to realize we have no rights in his kingdom.

    Why is that a problem for me to seek the why behind the eternal torture?

    Wait a minute. If someone kidnapped my wife, raped, tortured, killed and then took her wallet, why would it be immoral for me to be a vigilante to the person who did that to her?

    If anything it would be immoral for me to let the current government take my tax dollars and put this man in jail, where they will pay for his food and board at my expense? THAT is immoral. Hell no!
     
  4. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, you are highly over-stating the similarities between religions - stating "only shows minor differences" is either dishonesty or naivete.

    Regardless - throughout history there have always been atheists also! So, is that a point in favor of atheism, do you think? That there have always been atheists? Can't I use that point to in defense of my position? Doesn't that mean that it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion? Yes. Yes it does.

    Mankind has also always been in use of a brain and senses that are imperfect in their presentation and interpretation. So again - is this a point in favor of my notion that it may all be delusion? If you get to say "always this" and I can say "always that", then whose point gets more sway do you think? Hint: it is neither. Both points are useless.

    And testimony as to what is seen varies with beliefs held and culture assimilated to. This is cold, hard fact. There have been studies done between samples of two faiths that display this easily. For example, one done between a "group 1" of Indian (Hindu influence) and "group 2" of American (Christian influence). There were marked differences noted in testimonies given. Indian participants often reported that they were taken to the after-death realm by some form of afterlife "workers", who then discover a mistake was made and send them back, while Americans, if they mentioned anything about why they came back, may mention meeting the soul of a family member who told them to go back, or that they were told they had a duty of some kind yet to accomplish on Earth. (1986, researchers Satwant Pasricha and Ian Stevenson)

    Point being, it only takes a little research and digging around to find plenty of examples where NDEs are inconsistent, and offer evidence that people are just reacting to the stories and lore they were raised within when they recount their NDE.

    Maybe you do, but you don't get to influence what I feel can be seen in the order and function of our world. You know what would influence me however? EVIDENCE. You have no actual evidence that God had a hand in anything except stories that have been told to you. You can't physically examine a rock and see God's handiwork in it. You can't go to a tree, tap it, and out pours "God juice." Nothing in the world contains marked signs of "God." Nothing. Not one thing. You guys always talk about the painting needing a painter, or the watch needing a watchmaker. Well a painter also leaves brush strokes in his painting. A watchmaker always leaves tool & die marks or "fingerprints" in his handiwork. Where are the "brush strokes" of God?
     
  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you are still focusing on the eternal part which is not endless if the person changes. You need to pay more attention to the good vs evil part. What I am saying is that this world can't be good and also have people who love evil in it.
     
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I exist and I am what I am not the traditions about me.
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there are all kinds of energy, Being able to identify God among them makes a difference.
     
  8. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    I was stating this generally.

    I agree, absolutely.

    Asaahhh, thats a good point you made there. Dang! You using your noggin on that one. Now i gotta figure out how to counter that and getcha and pin ya down for the count, lol.

    Ok, like i was sayin, i was speaking in general. There was always different views in ancient times, but, there was a core tenent that was in agreement.

    Just like then, so as now, majority are not atheists. So, we trump you guys.

    Now i know majority dont rule, but in this case they do because of the other evidence.

    Apparitions and audable voices were always real. How people percieve and interprete them may be different, but that dont do away with the fact they happen.

    Using different language does not matter, the experiences are very similar. Yes, each one is unique, but thats to be expected if its real.

    This is grossely oversimplified and i starkly outright am going to say that source is not reliable one iota.

    Ive read 600 NDEs and all of them are unique, yet similar. That is the hallmarks of real.

    That is pure ignorence. You have no clue what your talking about at this point.

    Lol, order and design IS evidence.

    You cant tap on the painters painting and get painter "juice" to cone out either. ;)

    GODS paint strokes are the order and design.

    And common designs. As in we all have eyes on our head for instance.
     
  9. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    I'll just ignore the completely nonsensical idea of a god having been around "a long time" when talking in context of being "outside of time"....... :rolleyes:

    Secondly, you're just repeating your claim (outside of time = great intellect). I asked to explain/support the claim, not to simply re-assert it.

    Now support that claim.

    And non-sensical and unsupported, while hoping to dodge any and all responsability of having to make sense of it and actually support it.


    To "exist" is a verbe which only makes sense in a temporal framework. It means "to be for a period of time".
    And special pleading won't change that.

    I know, which is part of the problem here.

    You are trying to reference time in a context where time supposedly does not exist.
    So you are trying to talk about "before time". "before time" is just as non-sensical as "north of the north pole".

    There is no "before" time, just like there is no "north of north".

    Having an open mind means that I am open to listen to arguments that might show that my current beliefs are incorrect AND having the willingness to recognise that and thus change my beliefs.

    Having an open mind does NOT mean that I'll believe whatever, while the actual evidence doesn't support such at all.

    I have an open mind.
    You can use valid arguments to make me change my mind.
    Simple assertions and saying "you just gotta believe" will not do at all.


    You seem to be confusing open-mindedness with just sheer gullibility.

    Calling obvious barbaric attrocities "moral" has nothing to do with being "humble" and everything with being morally bankrupt.

    [uote]
    AND you want to realize this God exists outside space/time and holds perfect knowledge[/quote]

    There we go again... "you just gotta believe".
    Sorry, I don't.

    I'm open minded though: you can easily change my mind if you bring a decent and valid argument and evidence. Without it, I have no reason at all to believe your bizar claims that require me to throw away any and all human decency, integrity and rationality..


    Sounds suspiciously a lot like North Korea.

    Because many people do believe in God and beliefs inform actions. And their actions have a direct impact on my life.

    I prefer my fellow citizens to base their decisions on rational reasoning and rational evidence. The less superstitious beliefs are being hold, the better of society is.

    It's the same reason why I engage people who believe in things like fortune tellers, homeopathy, faith healing, crystal healing, horoscopes, and other such shenannigans.

    Another baseless assertion that doesn't have a single piece of rational evidence in support.


    Just like in North Korea.
    No rights. Only duties.

    I see. It's exactly as I described it. So your "no no" is nonsensical.
    You are saying that IF a god eternally tortures people and you find that to being immoral, then it MUST mean that you are wrong. So you ARE asking me to simply swallow up whatever you believe that god thinks, no matter why my moral compass is. Because if god disagrees, then I must be wrong.


    This is literally moral bankrupcy.

    See, I get my morality from an understanding of reality - not from an assertion of authority.
    The first is an actual moral compass.
    The latter is the "morality" from psychopaths.


    My theory is: because you are blinded by dogmatic religious beliefs that you aren't allowed to question.

    Let's assume that your god says "I don't have to explain myself to you, shut up or you'll join them".
    What then?

    Morality is not a thing that requires any "making" in the first place.
    Also: repeating unsupported assertions isn't going to make them any more believable.

    Just like in North Korea.

    That's not what I said.
    Read it again.

    Torturing is immoral, no matter the circumstances. It's also illegal.
    If the police would come to your house and find a this kidnapper right up in your basement with all his fingernails pulled out and paper cuts all over his body with salt and vinager poured over it, they'll arrest you and you'll go to prison for several years - no matter what that kidnapper did.


    :rolleye:


    owkay then.

    Welcome in the 21st century. Apparantly somebody made you believe that this is still medieval times or something.
     
  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Why I Could Never Be a Christian (or Muslim)?

    There is no compulsion in Quran/Islam/Muhammad, so why should one become a Muslim? Please remain with Agnosticism/Skepticism/Atheism till one realizes that Agnosticism/Skepticism/Atheism are totally wrong . Right, please?

    Regards
     
  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Islam/Quran/Muhammad mention that Hell is for the treatments of those who will go into it.
    The torture* is the self-doing of the sinner. If one jumps from a multi-story building and gets hurt it is one's own doing.

    Regards

    ___________
    *[9:70]اَلَمۡ یَاۡتِہِمۡ نَبَاُ الَّذِیۡنَ مِنۡ قَبۡلِہِمۡ قَوۡمِ نُوۡحٍ وَّ عَادٍ وَّ ثَمُوۡدَ ۬ۙ وَ قَوۡمِ اِبۡرٰہِیۡمَ وَ اَصۡحٰبِ مَدۡیَنَ وَ الۡمُؤۡتَفِکٰتِ ؕ اَتَتۡہُمۡ رُسُلُہُمۡ بِالۡبَیِّنٰتِ ۚ فَمَا کَانَ اللّٰہُ لِیَظۡلِمَہُمۡ وَ لٰکِنۡ کَانُوۡۤا اَنۡفُسَہُمۡ یَظۡلِمُوۡنَ

    Has not the story reached them of those before them — the people of Noah, ‘Ad, and Thamud, and the people of Abraham, and the dwellers of Midian, and the cities which were overthrown? Their Messengers came to them with clear Signs. So Allah would not wrong them, but they wronged themselves.
    The Holy Quran - Chapter: 9: At-Taubah

    _________
    *It is mentioned about 10 or more times in Quran.
     
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  12. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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    God as understood by Islam is nothing like God as understood by Christians, you can't work under the assumptions that because you've argued with Christians about God on this forum that you'll magically understand Islamic theology and philosophy, they're completely different fields of ideas there about monotheism. Our God is not a guy, nor an anthropomorphic deity either, so practically all of your criticisms here are by default not applicable.
     
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  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
    It's My Birthday!

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    "Apparitions and audable voices were always real. How people percieve and interprete them may be different, but that dont do away with the fact they happen. "

    There are a number of illnesses and diseases that cause both auditory and visual hallucinations.
     
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  14. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    A marvelous post.
    Regards
     
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  15. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Now, now, hold on, you misunderstand. There was a time when the universe began, but not a time God began. You see?

    Now, now, hold on, you still not understanding. God would have created the entire universe. That includes your brain and intellect. Do you not think that such a God would have a super intellect himself? Logically, yes.

    That makes zero sense. So, atoms, energy, they dont exist forever?

    So, lets say hypothetically you die and meet God and find out he tortures souls forever, would you ask him why or would you just object?

    If you asked why and he answered you telling the why, would you accept it if it made sense?

    You seam to be confusing the two. Being open and humble is not gullible.

    Thats just your emotions talking. Your not reasoning anything in that.

    So i should just believe torturing someone is morrally bankrupt? ;)

    How do you know you hold rationality here and i dont?

    If you want to you could find similarities and differences between every government. But, the difference between north korea and God is that north korea did not create the universe. Also north korea does not give freedom to its people, whilst God does. Again, our freedom from God is a gift, not a right.

    In the united states now, we have constitutional rights. But that comes from human government. In Gods government, all freedoms are gifts, not rights.

    How does religious peoples actions impact your life?

    How is not believing God exists make society better?

    Correct, you AND I must be wrong about eternal torture, IF when we die, we found out thats how it is. Why? Because its God, the maker of morality, intellect and the universe and all reality and has no begining in himself and knows all things.

    So i should just believe your assertion?

    Well wait just a minute there. How do you know your "morality" is based on a correct understanding of reality and God who MADE reality, has no understanding of it?

    My theory is: because you are blinded by dogmatic naturalist beliefs that you arent allowed to question. ;)

    By the way, yes, i am allowed to question. Your simply not understanding my points.

    Oh boy, you asked a real good juicy question there.

    Ok, heres the answer.

    1rst, i dont believe God would say shut up or youl join them. I believe hed see my thoughts and heart and that they are truely and humbly seeking to understand his heart and mind, and so he would tell me why.

    IF IF IF however im wrong on THAT and he does tell me to shut up or id join them forever. Well, let me be real here, wer talking about eternal torture. I would shut up. Ill be totally honest with you, i would shut up. Now your talking to a guy here who in practice in my life, i have to my harm, have talked back and questioned authority. So, im not a coward by any stretch of the word. But, if you know eternal torture is real and youl join them if you question and you also know there is literally no way to overpower this God, would you not shut up too? Youd be smart if you did and stupid if you did not.

    You see, courage is not the absence of fear, its the resistence to it. But, courage is also not stupidity either in the face of danger that cannot be overpowered.

    What good would it do if you joined them in eternal torture knowing youd never get out, plus never change this Gods mind?

    And you say your RATIONAL? Ya, right, lol, not.

    Oh ok, so if morality is not made, then it dont matter what your morality tells you then?

    Why is torturing immoral no matter the circumstances?

    And heres a guy who has just after arguing with me about how youd question God so fearlessly, but when it comes to human government making something illegal, boy, its set in stone, isnt it!? You got no balls to question your human government, but you do the king of the universe? Hmmmm, suuuure.

    And i totally understand that AND I WOULD NOT CARE. In fact, id finish him off, then the police would have to kill me. Because anyone who would tell me its immoral to torture my wifes torturer and killer and would seek to put me in jail for it, that officer would have to kill me because i would resist them.

    So your brain washed by the 21st century?

    Good to know.
     
  16. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    How you know there not seeing and hearing spirits?

    Also, how do you know halucinations and apparitions are not different?
     
  17. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    note: I had to break this post up because it became to long for a single post. I don't think I will continue this conversation because it is getting too long.
    At best, I'll stop replying to everything and just zoom in on specific points I find worthy of addressing, because this is too time consuming.

    No, I don't.
    I'm not the one pretending to understand atemporal conditions - that's all you.
    I'm also not the one giving temporal properties to entities that supposedly "exist" in atemporal conditions (while "to exist" itself, is also a temporal thing).

    Another assertion without evidence.

    My brain is the product of 3.8 billion years of biological evolution.
    That's what is supported by the evidence.
    There is no evidence of my brain being made by physically impossible atemporal creatures.


    Logically, this god you describe can't exist as it is defined in self-contradictory terms.

    Except that it makes perfect sense.
    To "exist" is a temporal thing. Show me something that exists in an atemporal context. Good luck with that.

    I don't know.
    See, I don't like to pretend to know things that are currently unknowable.

    Technically speaking though, yes, they exist "forever".
    Forever = for all of time.
    And at any point in history, when there was a universe (= time), there was energy.

    But the universe is off course finite in the past. Time began at T = 0. Together with the universe. Or Space-time, if you will.

    I'ld probably do whatever needs to be done to avoid being tortured forever.
    Just like the citizens of North Korea likely do whatever they need to do to avoid being send to work camps.

    I'ld still consider him an evil monster.

    I already answered that. I'll change my mind about anything, as long as it is based on sensible arguments and evidence. However, I can't for the life of me imagine what possible argument could ever be given to justify eternal torture.

    Here's the larger point however..... Let's just bend over backwards and assume that this god is capable of giving such an argument that actually makes sense.

    Here's the deal...... it would be an actual ARGUMENT. And not just an assertion of authority. In the idea that you previously said that "god created morality" - that's known as "divine command theory". That means that things are good "because the authority says so".

    But that's not what is being said here. What's being said here, is that this god would explain a reasoning. He'ld give actual reasons and arguments to show how eternal torture is a-okay. And it would consist of more then just "because I say so".

    Meaning that morality is NOT defined by this god. But rather external to it. Things then aren't good "because god says so". Things then are good for OTHER reasons, independend of this god.

    The difference between my statement and your statement concerning this, is that I actually explained mine, while you are again just making assertions.

    No, that's my moral compass talking.

    You think torture is a moral act?

    :eek:

    Because I base my stuff on reason and evidence.
    You base it on assertions of authority and blind faith.

    No. I have rights in a secular democracy.


    :rolleyes:

    ps: not exactly, according to north koreans. It seems you are not aware what North Koreans are required to believe about the Jung-un family.

    You just said the opposite, when you said that one has no rights in "the kingdom".

    Seriously?

    Ow dear, where do I start.....................

    There would be no muslim terrorists. AIDS in Africa wouldn't be such a problem when there is no pope to tell them that condoms are evil. There wouldn't be any parents raping their children's health because of stupid religious beliefs. Homophobia would drop drastically. Women would be better off (religions, abrahamic specifically, aren't that kind to women). There would no irrational opposition to certain vital scientific research programs. Need I go on?

    Again with the irrational assertions.........
    Again with the moral bankrupcy.

    Never. You should never "just believe" anything.
    Not me, not a bronze age book. Never.

    Because of its continued success and because our understanding of reality is ever-improving and tested every single day.

    Your god thinks slavery is okay.
    We then learned more about the world and came to the conclusion that slavery is anything but okay.
     
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  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    First of all, there is no reason at all why a god that creates a universe, couldn't be an evil douche. Being capable of creating a universe in no way or form necessitates being benevolent.

    Secondly, that's yet another assertion. You have to provide any kind of evidence to establish that this god you keep appealing to, is actually real.

    ISIS folks appeal to a god as well. They consider what they do extremely moral.
    And the ONLY argument you can possible give to counter them is "you believe in the wrong god".
    If their god was the right god, then following your "logic" here, then what these folks do would be in fact moral conduct.

    That's how morally bankrupt your take on all this is.
    This is exactly the problem.

    I agree. I would do that too.
    You know who does that too? The citizens of north korea. :p

    But the point here, is about morality off course.



    I'ld surely submit. Just like I'ld also do in North Korea.
    One thing I could not do however, is change my heart. The entire thing would strike me as deeply evil and immoral. And if this god would be completely omniscient and be able to "read my thoughts" or whatever, this god would surely know this. I would not be able to hide it.

    That doesn't follow.
    Morality is an inescapable phenomena in social species that depend on cooperation for survival.
    Without morality, society collapses. The more moral a society, the better it'll thrive.
    Morality isn't "made". At best, it is developed over time.

    All social species have some form of morality. The more complex the society and social structures/relationships, the more complex the morality will be(come).

    :rolleyes:

    It causes suffering.
    It causes permanent, or at least lasting, psychological harm.
    It decentizes the torturer's trait of empathy (that, or it also psychologically harms him/her)

    In short: no good can come from it.

    Case in point: name me one society where torture is common practice and acceptable where you would rather live as opposed to a society where such isn't the norm.

    I said: it's ALSO illegal. That word "also" points to the fact that it's not the only reason, nore the primary reason. I never said that legality is the same as morality. Many immoral things aren't illegal.

    Euh.... no. The police would only be allowed to use deadly force if you'ld tried to finish them off, or if it was the only way to prevent you from finishing him off.
    And that you wouldn't care is.... very unsettling.

    No. I just understand that our standards today are just a wee bit higher then they were several centuries ago.

    You on the other hand, seem to still be stuck in the barbaric mentality of millenia ago.

     
  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    Shift of the burden of proof.
    It's upto those claim that those things ARE "spirits", to support it.

    Failing that, and considering everything we actually know about hallucinations, we have no reason at all to believe otherwise.

    So tell me, are "spirits" allergic the anti-psychotic medicine? Because the voices that such people hear, tend to disappear when taking such medication.

    Evidence.
     
  20. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,397
    Ratings:
    +553
    Religion:
    Christian/mystic
    It sure is time consuming. Now i gotta respond to 3 posts, lol. Ill try to summerize some stuff.

    Below you say you dont know if atoms/energy last forever, yet here you assert anything that exists is temporal. Ok, so, which is it, atoms/energy is known by you to exist temporary or its unknown?

    How do you know that your brain was made by 3.8 billion years of evolution? How you know thats the evidence?

    I dont understand how God is described in self contradictory terms.

    If you dont like to pretend to know things that are unknowable, then why do you pretend to know evolution made your brain and why do you pretend to know atoms are temporal?

    Ok, so energy is forever?

    Some north koreans go to the camps.

    If God made the universe, that includes reason, would you concede that to be logical?

    Yes, torture is moral under certain circumstances. I gave you such a circumstance. Wife gets kidnapped, raped, tortured, killed, then robbed. Her killer should be tortured in return.

    Why should he not be?

    Thats not true, its the apposite.

    God gives freedoms as gifts, not rights.

    You know as well as i do that there are muslims who are not terrorists.

    But let me ask you this, would there be terrorists who are not muslims?

    You know people who are not catholic also dont use condoms? And you know some religious people still use condoms?

    Say what?

    Im kind to my wife. In fact, i think ive already been talking to you about a scenario that if she was kidnapped, raped, tortured, killed and robbed, that if i found her killer, id torture him.

    I think its quite the opposite. Naturalism has irrational opposition to deeper scientific research into everything paranormal.

    But, humor me, what kind of scientific research does religious people oppose?

    That interpretation i do not hold too. Slavery in the bible came with RIGHTS.

    Ill try to get to the other posts.
     
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