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Featured Why I CANNOT Believe in The Resurrection

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SeekingAllTruth, Apr 25, 2021.

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  1. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    You’re quoting the Bible, saying it means something other than what it says and interjecting what it doesn’t say at all as far as Baha u llah
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What Jesus promised to send was the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth, which was Baha'u'llah, not the Holy Spirit that lived inside of believers.

    Jesus said there were many things left to say and do in the future, things that could not be said back then because people were not yet ready to hear them… And since we know that Jesus was not going to be the one doing them (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30) we know it was going to be somebody else who Jesus referred to as the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth.

    John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    Baha’u’llah did everything Jesus said the Comforter would do.

    The Church taught Christians to believe that the Comforter and Spirit of truth were the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent on the day of Pentecost to live inside of them, but (1) the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost was only sent to the disciples, and (2) a spirit living inside of people could not do any of the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16; only a man could do those things, and that is why the verses are prefaced by what “he” will do.
    • Teach you all things
    • Call to remembrance what Jesus said
    • Testify of Jesus
    • Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
    • Guide you into all truth
    • Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
    • Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
    Baha’u’llah did all these things and as a result of His revelation the world will be reproved the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. No spirit living inside of Christians is going to do this.
    We are no longer living in the church age, we are living in the Messianic Age which was ushered in by the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah in 1844 AD. I already explained that to you so I won't explain it again.

    The Holy Spirit does not minister to anyone, it is the Bounty of God that was sent by God when God sent Jesus and Baha'u'llah to minister to the peoples of the world.

    Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
    Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

    Some Answered Questions, p. 108
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The Bible does not SAY anything because the Bible does not talk. The Bible just sits on the shelf until someone opens it and starts reading it. As people read the words in the Bible, they interpret them and assign meanings to the words. You assign different meanings than I do so you believe the Bible means something different from what I believe it means.

    It is as simple as that.

    "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

    There is nothing in that verse about the resurrected physical body of Jesus being taken up to heaven.
    You just interject your Christian beliefs onto the Bible.

    The same Jesus is not coming back to the world unless Jesus lied or the Bible is in error.

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    no more
    phrase of more
    1. nothing further.
      "there was no more to be said about it"
    2. no further.
      "you must have some soup, but no more wine"
    3. exist no longer.
      "the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"
    4. never again.
      "mention his name no more to me"
    5. neither.
      "I had no complaints and no more did Tom"
    Translate no more to
    Definitions from Oxford Languages
     
    #1443 Trailblazer, May 7, 2021
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  4. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Here is an example. We don't have the Romans over us crucifying everyone left and right with a savior who predicts his death. They were all influenced by the Roman culture and we are not. Not in the same way.
     
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  5. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    The spiritual state of people aren’t different they still had the same sin and heart issues back then as we do now. Sure what you said is correct, we have just repackaged our sin.
     
  6. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Sorry to say but Jesus is with the apostles after He rose from the dead, He was standing there talking to them when He ascended into Heaven. It’s clearly stated there. You’d be twisting Scripture to say it’s says otherwise.
     
  7. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    I believe that because that’s exactly what it says. Thanks for your views and explaining your beliefs.
     
    #1447 ElishaElijah, May 7, 2021
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    So backwards. It is because I have read it and understood it and studied a bit outside of the Bible that I know it is rubbish.

    We could try to have a discussion.
     
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  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Nope, you have no way of knowing that he said any such thing.

    Once again the Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence. So far you have refused to come up with a rational way of testing your beliefs. Until you do you only have unsupported claims.
     
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  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It is not stated the Jesus ascended to heaven in a physical body.
    If Jesus ascended to Heaven it was not in a physical body, it was in a spiritual body, because only spiritual bodies exist in heaven.

    1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

    40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

    44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

    50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

    51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

    54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]


    Read full chapter

    Spiritual bodies do not exist on earth because earth is a physical world, so that means that the spiritual body of Jesus ascended to Heaven and stayed in Heaven and will remain there forever, and that means that Jesus is never going to return to earth, just like Jesus said (John 14:19, John 17:11).
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I believe that Jesus is not coming back to the world because that is exactly what the Bible says:

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
     
  12. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    He isn’t in the world because He rose and sent the Holy Spirit and us, the Church, the world doesn't see Jesus but we do but not with our physical eyes. But to say what you are is to skip or miss interpret the rest of Scriptures saying He is physically returning.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What are those Scriptures?
    Jesus said "the world seeth me no more" so if Jesus returned physically that means nobody would see Him.
    What would be the point of nobody saw Jesus? How would we know He was here?
     
  14. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.””
    ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:7-8‬
    ““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ””
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:37-39‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That's right... Christ returned in the clouds and that is why the Christians did not see Him; but every eye will see Him in the future, because everyone on earth will know who Baha'u'llah was. Oh and by the way, Baha'u'llah was pierced with heavy chains that cut into His body.

    “Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

    The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that cloud our judgment and prevent us from seeing what is really there. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ when He came in the person of Baha'u'llah.
    That's right... They would see the Spirit of Jesus no more, until Baha'u'llah came. Baha'u'llah came in the name of the Lord, and that is why Jesus said "‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ "

    You really cannot understand the meaning of the Scriptures that pertain to the return of Christ without the Writings of Baha'u'llah because He opened the book as per Daniel 12.

    Daniel 12 explains why the Christians would misinterpret and thus misunderstand the Bible.

    Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

    We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before (knowledge shall be increased).

    4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased
     
    #1455 Trailblazer, May 7, 2021
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  16. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    If Christ returned in the clouds you’re saying His Bride, His Body, all those who made a covenant with Him didn’t see Him. Everyone else did though which is not correct.
     
  17. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Your position has been consistently built on rejecting and ignoring the expert testimony that was crucial to Chauvin's conviction. Take away all the expert testimony about police conduct and Chauvin's actions then perhaps he would have gotten away with murder. Let's note that he and the other 3 officers have just been indicted on federal charges in Floyd's death. Your position is going down in flames.


    It doesn't;t seem to have ever occurred to you that Chauvin is guilty of murder. People who get caught committing murder get convicted. Chauvin got caught on video. And witnesses. The family got a $27 million settlement. Looks like the city were pretty damned convinced that the 4 officers killed Floyd. And has it ever occurred to you that black people are getting fed up with being victims of racism in society and our public institutions? Just yesterday the New York Times reported on how black people are heavily discriminated against in the real estate and mortgage industries. You conservatives can't keep being in different to this racism and blame black people as if they they should just behave as if they are white middle class people, and things will be OK.

    Waters made a huge error of judgment, and she often does. Just I cut her slack because she is representing the rights of black Americans against republicans and conservatives who are racists. The USA is still fighting the Civil War, and conservatives are not aware they are the Confederates, just as they were in the 1800's.


    You are heavily biased. The biased just need to deny they are biased because it is a moral failure and shows poor character. You have a lot of self-reflection work to do, but I don't think honesty is your thing.
     
  18. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    I didn't mention the Hebrew language. I was referring to the text in the Bible and how the concepts describing God differ from the Old to New Testaments. Jesus doesn't describe a God like the OT does. Almost a different God. Or it got therapy.
     
  19. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    I didn’t excuse Chauvin or his actions, now you’re saying it’s racism and that’s a big problem. You don’t even look at the criminals part in his own downfall. That’s also a big problem in society, always someone else’s fault. That’s why you’re biased and I’m not.
     
  20. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    None of it seems to be true.

    And the whole point of Jesus being sacrificed for the sins of mankind is to get the believer's butt of of eternal hell. Christians are promised eternal life for some reason, and one reason is because death is scary, and Christianity promises eternal life in heaven. That is manipulative, and to my mind immoral. This is what happens when a theology takes itself too seriously, and takes the concepts literally.

    Life is short, don't waste time in church gambling these ideas are true.

    Exactly, good point, this is why I use my intellect and examine religious ideas objectively. Given the lack any evidence I reject them, so I'm not wasting time investing my life in them.

    Now you might say I'm investing time debating religion. Yes, it's a hobby and challenges my brain. It reminds me that I am my own moral arbiter and must take my moral judgments seriously and not fall into social norms.
     
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