Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Such a low level of understanding. They are "logical" when one understands the source.
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WHY I BELIEVE THAT CHRIST IS GOD
- Thread starter mmarco
- Start date
mmarco
Member
No, because God has created us with a free will; let me try to explain this point.
I believe that God loves us infinitely, and He desires to lead each of us to the true life and true happiness, a condition existing only in communion with God. But God cannot tolerate evil and sin, because they are incompatible with His good and holy nature. God cannot simply forgive us if we keep sin and evil within us. A deep interior change is necessary for all of us to reach the eternal happiness; we must be sanctified and purified from all our evil and sinful desires. God has the power to change us but He wants to do that with our consent. In fact God has chosen to create man with a free will, He wants to respect our free will. If God purified us against our will, He would destroy the essence of the human being, our free conscience. Man cannot really accept to be changed by God and he cannot be in communion with God as long as even a shadow of doubt and distrust remains in his heart ( it must be stressed that such a distrust may exist even without the man is aware of it, at the unconscious level).*
In order to destroy every shadow of doubt and distrust in our heart, God has chosen to give us the greatest proof of love that may exist: Christ's Passion.
However those who do not believe in God, despite Christ's Passian, are not willing to allow God to purify them and they remain in their sins and therefore they cannot go to heaven
Hey there @mmarco! I've been a pretty serious christian for the first 30 years of my life, and I can understand why people feel drawn to that path. Love is a wonderful concenpt to incorporate into one's life. 
There are a few things I might offer for consideration, though...
The "proves itself by itself" part of your argument seems off to me. It seems like circular logic, and circular reasoning isn't very rational or logical. It's not a good way to arrive at the truth; only concrete, testable evidence can give you a closer glimpse at the nature of rality.
One might consider that before being "fully convinced" and making "superfluous any other arguments." If you close yourself off and shut down completely to other possibilities, you'll only ever allow yourself to consider a fraction of what's out there.
How will you know if you can deduce truth from other truths if you already have the answers you want, as per above? If god IS objective truth, then it would seem like seeking objective truth would bring you closer to him; even if that means that your initial ideas on who god were might be incorrect, no?
Just because objective reality is subject to physics doesn't mean that it manifests subjectively. True, our subjective interpretation of objective reality (and physics) is most pertinent to our daily lives, but the whole point of our subjective reality is that we can interract with objective reality. Without objective truth, subjective reality wouldn't even have a point.
Ultimately, subjective reality is flawed. We can only understand a tiny fraction of everything that's happening. That's the problem with conciousness; true, it's the most relevant understanding we get of reality, but that's only because it's also the only one we can ever truly know or understand. Because our understanding is so one sided, it can be easy to fool ourselves into thinking we know more about the nature of reality than we actually do.
As for mathematical constructs...
I would like to firstly get out of the way that atheism doesn't account for anything. It's simply not being convinced that a god exists. From my own perspective, I could be wrong, but the gods that I have studied and come to know seem man made. Until I see something that convinces me otherwise, though, I will refrain from belief in any god.
Now, back on topic, I think you are underestimating the ability for mankind to find patterns in things. We are wired for it.
When we look at clouds, we find ships and dogs. When we listen to music, we appreciate the rhythms and tones. When we go hunting, we are able to track the deer through it's tracks and directional blood spatter; which ultimately is where this pattern recognition comes from. As persistence hunters, our ancestors needed to be able to discern patterns in order to survive.
Pattern recognition is what has helped us to grow and learn as a species. If there are categories to anything, it's only because we gave it a category. If the universe is mathematically structured, it's because we gave it that structure.
Math isn't a one size fits all thing, either. In math classes I used to drive my teacher batty because the way I do math is backwards from most. We find the one that works best, and we use that; just like with everything else. We've made systems for everything.
I'll take your word for it... Physics is a point of weakness for me.
See, the problem here is that we aren't talking physics, though; at least, not exclusively. We are talking biology.
None of those biochemical reactions would mean anything if they happened outside of a human brain. Not only that, but changes in the brain can change how consciousness even works.
I knew a man who was the most gentlest, most selfless individual. He would give you the shirt off his back without hesitation. He was someone I would point to if I ever wanted to show someone an example of a good christian.
One day he suffered a stroke...after that, it changed him. He became a whole different person.
What once was a kind, gentle soul had become an angry, abusive man. His whole personality changed. He wasn't him anymore. He didn't live long after that event, so thankfully his wife didn't go through too much of that, but damn...
Ultimately, though, it was because of the trauma that his brain had endured; it rewired his brain. He had to relearn how to do simple tasks, like speak and write. After that event, though, the old man had died and someone else was born that day.
What of his soul, or the soul of the new man that was born of that traumatic event? Where does the soul part fit in? Biology seems to have it covered without introducing souls into the mix.
There are a few things I might offer for consideration, though...
The "proves itself by itself" part of your argument seems off to me. It seems like circular logic, and circular reasoning isn't very rational or logical. It's not a good way to arrive at the truth; only concrete, testable evidence can give you a closer glimpse at the nature of rality.
One might consider that before being "fully convinced" and making "superfluous any other arguments." If you close yourself off and shut down completely to other possibilities, you'll only ever allow yourself to consider a fraction of what's out there.
How will you know if you can deduce truth from other truths if you already have the answers you want, as per above? If god IS objective truth, then it would seem like seeking objective truth would bring you closer to him; even if that means that your initial ideas on who god were might be incorrect, no?
Just because objective reality is subject to physics doesn't mean that it manifests subjectively. True, our subjective interpretation of objective reality (and physics) is most pertinent to our daily lives, but the whole point of our subjective reality is that we can interract with objective reality. Without objective truth, subjective reality wouldn't even have a point.
Ultimately, subjective reality is flawed. We can only understand a tiny fraction of everything that's happening. That's the problem with conciousness; true, it's the most relevant understanding we get of reality, but that's only because it's also the only one we can ever truly know or understand. Because our understanding is so one sided, it can be easy to fool ourselves into thinking we know more about the nature of reality than we actually do.
As for mathematical constructs...
I would like to firstly get out of the way that atheism doesn't account for anything. It's simply not being convinced that a god exists. From my own perspective, I could be wrong, but the gods that I have studied and come to know seem man made. Until I see something that convinces me otherwise, though, I will refrain from belief in any god.
Now, back on topic, I think you are underestimating the ability for mankind to find patterns in things. We are wired for it.
When we look at clouds, we find ships and dogs. When we listen to music, we appreciate the rhythms and tones. When we go hunting, we are able to track the deer through it's tracks and directional blood spatter; which ultimately is where this pattern recognition comes from. As persistence hunters, our ancestors needed to be able to discern patterns in order to survive.
Pattern recognition is what has helped us to grow and learn as a species. If there are categories to anything, it's only because we gave it a category. If the universe is mathematically structured, it's because we gave it that structure.
Math isn't a one size fits all thing, either. In math classes I used to drive my teacher batty because the way I do math is backwards from most. We find the one that works best, and we use that; just like with everything else. We've made systems for everything.
I'll take your word for it... Physics is a point of weakness for me.
See, the problem here is that we aren't talking physics, though; at least, not exclusively. We are talking biology.
None of those biochemical reactions would mean anything if they happened outside of a human brain. Not only that, but changes in the brain can change how consciousness even works.
I knew a man who was the most gentlest, most selfless individual. He would give you the shirt off his back without hesitation. He was someone I would point to if I ever wanted to show someone an example of a good christian.
One day he suffered a stroke...after that, it changed him. He became a whole different person.
What once was a kind, gentle soul had become an angry, abusive man. His whole personality changed. He wasn't him anymore. He didn't live long after that event, so thankfully his wife didn't go through too much of that, but damn...
Ultimately, though, it was because of the trauma that his brain had endured; it rewired his brain. He had to relearn how to do simple tasks, like speak and write. After that event, though, the old man had died and someone else was born that day.
What of his soul, or the soul of the new man that was born of that traumatic event? Where does the soul part fit in? Biology seems to have it covered without introducing souls into the mix.
Audie
Veteran Member
Colt
Well-Known Member
God is the source of Love. God is Love.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Oh, my mistake. I thought you were discussing the Christian God.
So, based on your feelings.
mmarco
Member
This is the point, the brain is nothing but a set of subatomic particles which properties are determined by the same laws of physics as in every other set of subatomic particles, such as an electric device. All biological and chemical processes are nothing but successions of elementary physical processes , which is sufficient to prove that consciousness is irriducible to cerebral processes and transcends the physical/biological reality. Consciousness is the result of the interaction between an unphysical/unbiological principle (the soul) and the brain.
Because of this interaction, cerebral damages affects of course also our conscious psychical life.
Audie
Veteran Member
Yep, could have been said in as many words.
We are taught that self indulgence is
the root of all evil, and here its glorified.
Orbit
I'm a planet
I think you'll find that your view is at odds with Catholic theology. Jesus is part of the trinity, but is not God in the way you're saying. Jesus in the Son; God is the Father; they are of the same divine essence but are not the same person. (This is according to theology; I have no dog in this fight).
Audie
Veteran Member
Sufficient for one already convinced.
A scientist, BTW, mentioned because you claim
such training, doesn't do conclusions based
on unevidenced assertions about such as a "soul' .
Scientists also know that proof is non
existent in science.
The more you try to mix science into your
religion, the less credible your " physicst "
claim becomes.
Orbit
I'm a planet
This is panpsychism. But seriously, how can you have a thought without a brain? Empirically, it's not possible.
mmarco
Member
I have never said that Jesus and God the Father are the same person. You must have misunderstood my meaning.
Anyway, John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
mmarco
Member
The point is that, according to the laws of physics, the existence of any thought requires the existence of an unphysical/unbiological element, which is sufficient to prove that the fundamental assumption of materialism (i.e. consciousness is a product of the cerebral activity) is in contradiction with our scientific knowledges about the brain.
Of course, we cannot prove that consciusness can exist also when the soul is disconnected from the brain; this is something we can only believe. On the contrary, the existence of the soul is a truth supported by our scientific knowledges.
Wrangler
Ask And You Will Receive
You heard???
The trinity: there is no there, there. Supposing otherwise is what is irrational.
Wrangler
Ask And You Will Receive
No. Trinitarians parse synonyms, person and being.
Jesus died. God did not. Jesus was resurrected by God. That is the text of Scripture. Jesus lifeless corpse was acted upon. God, in his unitarian nature, did the acting.
Who did Jesus pray to? God. Who did Jesus tell us to pray to? God. Saint Paul said it strongest, ‘For us, there is One God, the Father.’ 1 Corinthians 8:6.
Nor would anyone practice to deceive.
Human Nature abounds in nothing but
goodiness.
That's why all ideologies that say their
guys are goody are abundantly honest.
mmarco
Member
Both Jesus and the Father are the one God; you cannot choose only one verse and disregards all the others; for example; John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Thomas calls Jesus "my God" and Jesus does not correct him. God loves us so much that He decided to suffer a terrible death in the Person of Christ to save us and lead us to the eternal life. This is the highest concept of divine love that may exist.
Audie
Veteran Member
Audie
Veteran Member
Physics again,
You gotta tell us about these pbysical
laws that prove as you say...including this
new Science that admits of proof.
This is beyond Nobel level.
Don't be selfish!