• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why I believe in Christ

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
Why stop at John 1:14, when John 1:18 informs us that No man has seen God at any time. People saw Jesus. - 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20.

God the Son
is not God the Holy Spirit
is not God the Father.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:
3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


All three called God, together in one place.

Remember that God is worshiped. So is Jesus.
 

Mitty

Active Member
I find at Mark 10:18 Jesus says only God is good.
The man was using the word Master or Teacher (Mark 10:17) to be flattering to Jesus ( the religious leaders demanded such titles )
Jesus had No objections to being Teacher or Lord but always directed all honor to be given to his Father - Revelation 4:11
Not in a relative sense but in the 'absolute sense' God is Good - Matthew 19:17; Luke 18:19
God's inspired Word informs us Jesus was sinless at Hebrews 4:15 B. Jesus was separate from sinners - Hebrews 7:26
But where do the gospels say that Jesus was sinless, given that anything Paul wrote is irrelevant since he never even met Jesus?
 

Mitty

Active Member
Jesus is God.
And Jesus was saying why are you calling any man good.
Where does Jesus say that he was a god or without sin, given that his own family (including his mother and her husband) didn't even believe that he was a prophet as he claimed Matt 13:55-58 John 7:5)? And if he was a god, why did he unsuccessfully appeal for help from his god when he was being executed for sedition by the Romans (Matt 27:46)?
And afterall Jesus was described as a boozer which he didn't refute or deny (Matt 11:19), which is why he performed a simple conjuring trick with some previously hidden wine to irresponsibly make some "well drunk" boozers even drunker (John 2:1-10).
 

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
Where does the bible say that Noah & Moses & Abraham & David etc repented and believed in Jesus and were saved?
?

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw [it], and was glad
.
Psalms 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy great mercy; and according to the multitude of thy compassions blot out my transgression. 2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

Psalm 2:6-7 is clearly about David

Psalms 2:7 the Lord said to Me, Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces as a potter’s vessel.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:
3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Matthew 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the Son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.

The same Holy Spirit which links believers to God, linked Jesus to God, making Him born from above... in addition to His natural birth... which was itself super-natural. When Jesus gave up the ghost, He literally gave up the Holy Spirit. He was to about be glorified with the glory He had with the Father from the before the world was (John 17:5).
 

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
But where do the gospels say that Jesus was sinless

Where do they say that He wasn't? He was certainly accused all up and down the block. Did anything stick to Him?

Matthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it].

John 11:48 If we let Him thus alone, all [men] will believe on Him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
 

Mitty

Active Member
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw [it], and was glad
.
Psalms 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy great mercy; and according to the multitude of thy compassions blot out my transgression. 2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
But where does the bible say that Moses & Noah & Abraham & David repented and believed in Jesus, given that John 3:13 says that they didn't go to heaven?



Psalms 2:7 the Lord said to Me, Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces as a potter’s vessel.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:
3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Matthew 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the Son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.

The same Holy Spirit which links believers to God, linked Jesus to God, making Him born from above... in addition to His natural birth... which was itself super-natural. When Jesus gave up the ghost, He literally gave up the Holy Spirit. He was to about be glorified with the glory He had with the Father from the before the world was (John 17:5).
Doesn't change the fact that Psalm 2:6-7 says that David was his god's begotten son as well as the Jewish king, even though he never went to heaven (John 3:13)..
 

Iymus

Active Member
The fundamental reason why I believe in Jesus Christ, is that I find that the christian concept of God and of divine love is the highest possible concept. I find that the idea itself that God loves us so much that He chose to assume the human nature and accepted to suffer crucifission in order to save us, expresses such a high concept of God and of divine love that it can comes only from God. I believe that Chirst suffered His Passion to help us to have faith in Him and trust Him, to make us understand that God loves us infinitely, that God is good and mercifull and that God is near to us so that we may open our heart to Him, be in communion with Him and be saved.

good thing that the heart be established with grace "referenced from Heb 13:9"

what i mean or believe is that it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace in love.

however what you described might be more in alignment in romanticism than love.

if it is more in alignment with romanticism than love , then correction might be grievous "Pro 15:10" and you may end up on a wide path instead of a narrow path "Mat 7:13" if not already.

Yes, there are two questions implied, one directed to those who believe in Christ, which is "why do you believe in Christ?"

hard to describe as seemingly simple; observations, conversations, actions, and consequences which are not static but ongoing.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
But where do the gospels say that Jesus was sinless, given that anything Paul wrote is irrelevant since he never even met Jesus?
Jesus was ' holy ' - Luke 1:35 ( aka sinless )
I find according to gospel writer Luke that Paul was Not irrelevant - please read Luke's words at Acts of the Apostles 9th chapter.
I also find at 2 Peter 3:15 that Peter considers Paul as our beloved brother.
So, if one discounts the writings of Paul, then it seems that Luke and Peter should also be discounted.
- 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
But where does the bible say that Moses & Noah & Abraham & David repented and believed in Jesus, given that John 3:13 says that they didn't go to heaven?
Doesn't change the fact that Psalm 2:6-7 says that David was his god's begotten son as well as the Jewish king, even though he never went to heaven (John 3:13)..

When Moses, Noah, Abraham, David, etc. are resurrected back to healthy physical life on Earth, then they will then learn who Messiah was. - Acts 24:15.
Also, Daniel is still asleep in the grave - Daniel 12:13
They will have a future coming resurrection according to Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39 which 'resurrection' is the fulfillment of the 'promise'.
God's promise that ALL families of Earth will be blessed and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Genesis 12:3; 22:18
Blessed with the benefit of ' healing ' for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

Psalms 2:12 says to' kiss the Son', that Son would be Messiah - 1 Samuel 2:10.
Psalms 2:7 corresponds with Hebrews 1:5
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
good thing that the heart be established with grace "referenced from Hebrews 13:9"
what i mean or believe is that it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace in love.
however what you described might be more in alignment in romanticism than love.
if it is more in alignment with romanticism than love , then correction might be grievous "Proverbs 15:10" and you may end up on a wide path instead of a narrow path "Matthew 7:13" if not already........................

Yes, have a heart established with brotherly love - Hebrews 13.
For the marriage bed be honorable - Hebrews 13:4
It is easy to be on the wide path because as Jeremiah 17:9 wrote that the heart is treacherous.
Treacherous because the imperfect heart urges us to do something, and after we do it then the heart gives all the reasons why we should Not have done what we did in the first place. The fallen heart is like having a traitor within us.
 

Mitty

Active Member
Jesus was ' holy ' - Luke 1:35 ( aka sinless )
I find according to gospel writer Luke that Paul was Not irrelevant - please read Luke's words at Acts of the Apostles 9th chapter.
I also find at 2 Peter 3:15 that Peter considers Paul as our beloved brother.
So, if one discounts the writings of Paul, then it seems that Luke and Peter should also be discounted.
- 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
But where did Jesus say that he was without sin and/or that he was a god?
Afterall he didn't stone the adulteress when he invited anyone without sin to stone her.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God has created man with a free will and God respect our free will. So He does not save us against our will, but He needs our cooperation; hence salvation does not happen behind the scene, but we must try to observe Christ's commandments, love God and our neighbour so that God will sanctified us and prepare uus for the eternal life in heaven.
What about this life here, regardless of heaven beyond? Is it possible to experience the fullness of heaven here on earth while you are alive? Does that happen, or is it just believing after you die you will find that Peace, that brings a sense of hope for the next world?

No, it is not absolutely something that happens by saying "I agree to it"; as I said , we must cooperate with God and try to eliminate every kind of evil and sin from ourselves.
But how does the transformation happen? If you just quit doing bad things, that's good. But what else needs to happen in order to grow beyond the ego? What sort of practices do you do?

There is certainly room for doubt about myself and my ideas, but there is no room for doubt about God, because God is the Truth, the source of all true love and true good. This is what I firmly believe.
I agree God is the source of all true love and good, for God is Love. But when you mentioned doubt before, were you talking about not doubting that, or about not doubting certain theological beliefs?
 

Mitty

Active Member
When Moses, Noah, Abraham, David, etc. are resurrected back to healthy physical life on Earth, then they will then learn who Messiah was. - Acts 24:15.
Also, Daniel is still asleep in the grave - Daniel 12:13
They will have a future coming resurrection according to Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39 which 'resurrection' is the fulfillment of the 'promise'.
God's promise that ALL families of Earth will be blessed and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Genesis 12:3; 22:18
Blessed with the benefit of ' healing ' for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

Psalms 2:12 says to' kiss the Son', that Son would be Messiah - 1 Samuel 2:10.
Psalms 2:7 corresponds with Hebrews 1:5
In other words the bible doesn't say that Moses or Noah or Abraham or David ever went to heaven, given that John 3:13 clearly says that they didn't since they didn't believe in Jesus.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
But where did Jesus say that he was without sin and/or that he was a god?
Afterall he didn't stone the adulteress when he invited anyone without sin to stone her.
First of all, the King James added the first eleven verses found at John chapter 8.
So, in other words, John chapter 8 as we know it today begins with verse 12.

Jesus did Not say he was a god in the sense of being his own God. - John 4:23-24
The word ' god' in itself means a divine one and pre-human Jesus was divine because he came from Heaven when his God sent him to Earth for us.
Even the human judges as mentioned at Psalms 82 were ' gods' because they were to use God's judgements to carry out God's justice.
Those judges were acting in the capacity of being representatives or spokesmen for God and Jesus did just the same thing.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
In other words the bible doesn't say that Moses or Noah or Abraham or David ever went to heaven, given that John 3:13 clearly says that they didn't since they didn't believe in Jesus.
However, they did believe in Messiah coming. They believed the first prophecy as recorded at Genesis 3:15 about the promised 'seed ' ( would be Jesus ).
Heaven is only for people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18.
God's original purpose is that people live forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden was a sample.
Adam and Eve were created to live forever on Earth.
Their descendants were to live here on Earth forever.
If you were out working in your Garden and a person came along an interrupted you, would you say because I was interrupted I am Not going back to the garden ___________
Satan came along an threw a monkey wrench into God's edenic garden, but God has Not abandoned His paradisical garden.
The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us __________
People who want to live by the Golden Rule, live by Jesus' New commandment as found at John 13:34-35 can gain everlasting life.
The majority of people can gain eternal life right here on Earth starting with the coming 1,000-year governmental reign of Christ over Earth.
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon humanity.
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What about this life here, regardless of heaven beyond? Is it possible to experience the fullness of heaven here on earth while you are alive? Does that happen, or is it just believing after you die you will find that Peace, that brings a sense of hope for the next world....................

The people who are alive on Earth starting with calendar Day One of Jesus' millennial reign over Earth can gain everlasting life on Earth.
These living people are the figurative humble ' sheep' of Matthew 25:37.
They are the ' great crowd ' of people of Revelation 7:9 who come through the ' great tribulation ' of Revelation 7:14.
So, the fullness of heaven's blessings will be right here to experience right here on Earth.
There will be ' healing ' for earth's nations according to Revelation 22:2.
No one will say, " I am sick....." - Isaiah 33:24
Earth and its people will be healthy as described at Isaiah35th chapter.
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
 

Mitty

Active Member
First of all, the King James added the first eleven verses found at John chapter 8.
So, in other words, John chapter 8 as we know it today begins with verse 12.

Jesus did Not say he was a god in the sense of being his own God. - John 4:23-24
The word ' god' in itself means a divine one and pre-human Jesus was divine because he came from Heaven when his God sent him to Earth for us.
Even the human judges as mentioned at Psalms 82 were ' gods' because they were to use God's judgements to carry out God's justice.
Those judges were acting in the capacity of being representatives or spokesmen for God and Jesus did just the same thing.
Which is why Jesus said that he wasn't without sin since he wasn't a god (Mark 10:18), otherwise he wouldn't have been executed by the Romans for sedition.
 

Mitty

Active Member
However, they did believe in Messiah coming. They believed the first prophecy as recorded at Genesis 3:15 about the promised 'seed ' ( would be Jesus ).
Have you ever read Gen 3:15? If so, where does Gen 3:15 say anything about Jesus and that he was a seed?

Genesis 3:15 King James Version
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Heaven is only for people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18.
God's original purpose is that people live forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden was a sample.
Adam and Eve were created to live forever on Earth.
Their descendants were to live here on Earth forever.
If you were out working in your Garden and a person came along an interrupted you, would you say because I was interrupted I am Not going back to the garden ___________
Satan came along an threw a monkey wrench into God's edenic garden, but God has Not abandoned His paradisical garden.
The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us __________
People who want to live by the Golden Rule, live by Jesus' New commandment as found at John 13:34-35 can gain everlasting life.
The majority of people can gain eternal life right here on Earth starting with the coming 1,000-year governmental reign of Christ over Earth.
This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon humanity.
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2.
That's just pure fantasy, given that our aborigines arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl.
 
Last edited:

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I disagree; no religions speak about a God who assumes tha human nature and accepts to suffer and die in order to save us.
That's not what I said. I referred to the concept of "God and divine love," which is not unique to Christianity.

I am not sure to understand your question, but I try to unswer.
As I have explained, it is the christin concept itself of divine love that makes me believe that God of the christian faith is the true God.
A concept is just a concept. Everyone has them.; all sorts of them. That doesn't make them true.
An idea isn't evidence. People have ideas about Santa Clause, faeries and Vishnu, but this isn't evidence they're real.
And again, why do you believe the concept of divine love is exclusively a Christian concept?
I am a physicist and I think that a rational analysis of our scientific knowledges provides a strong and convincent argument supporting the existence of a personal intelligent God. In fact, all what science shows about the universe is that it manifests itself to us as a realization of some specific abstract mathematical models (what we call “the laws of physics”); in fact, the subatomic components of matters (quantum particles and fields) are actually only abtract mathematical concepts.
I'm not seeing this "strong and convincing" argument. Your conclusion seems to be your premise.
What concrete observations are you starting with, and what steps lead you to this god conclusion? Is it testable,or predictive? Can you explain?
On the other hand, mathematical models are only constructions of the rational thought and a mathematical model can exist only as a thought in a thinking mind conceiving it; therefore the existence of this mathematically structured universe implies the existence of an intelligent God, conceiving if as a mathematrical model. In other words, the universe can be only the manifestation of a mathematical theory existing in the mind of an intelligent and conscious God, i.e. a personal God.
I see no such implication. The universe and the laws are what they are. The laws are testable, predictive, and give repeatable results. I see neither evidence not need for an intelligent or purposeful God, the impersonal, undirected laws work quite well without capricious interventions.
This "argument" doesn't follow.
Once you understand that God is the Creator of the whole unverse and of ourselves, you can understand that God is certainly superior to ourselves. Since God has the capacity to create our intelligence, our consciousness and our will, He must be intelligent, conscious and He must have a will.
I have to believe in your conclusion before I can understand it? This doesn't follow, nor does this a priori "understanding" give us any reason to believe in an unnecessary, unevidenced mythology.
In fact, since God is superior to us and He is the Creator of our own capacities, He must possess our own capacities in a superior way. Since God is superior to us, He must have a superior capacity to love.
Once you understand that the Creator of the universe must be a loving God, you may understand what I wrote in my first about the reason why I believe that the God of christian faith is only true God.
Again, you're putting the cart before the horse, so to speak; arguing backward from your conclusion. This is just preaching.
 
Top