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Featured Why I believe in Christ

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by mmarco, Aug 22, 2020.

  1. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    But why did Abraham's god need to discuss the number of righteous children in Sodom with Abraham, and why wasn't it an omniscient or omnipresent type of god (Gen 18)?

    And since it wasn't an omniscient god then how would that particular god know "the point of No repentance"?

    And why didn't Jesus return within the lifetimes of his contemporaries as they expected?
     
  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    How is self injurious behavior a sign of love? And for an eternal being, how is ~33 years of human life and one lousy weekend sacrificing anything?
     
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  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    For Moses, Noah, Abraham the evidence would begin with the first prophecy found at Genesis 3:15.
    That promised ' seed ' prove to be Jesus.
    So, when they are resurrected they will then learn about the Christian Scriptures about Jesus.
    From Adam to Jesus No one was offered Heaven, they had the earthly promise (John 3:13; Hebrews 11:13,39) everlasting life on Earth.
    Eternal life on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
    King David and John the Baptist ( who died before Jesus ) are also asleep in the grave awaiting an earthly resurrection - Acts 2:34'; Matthew 11:11.
    Heaven is only for people like those people of Luke 22:28-30 (Daniel 7:18; Revelation 2:10)
    Revelation 22:2 ' healing ' of earth's nations will be for the people who will inherit the Earth as promised at Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11,29
     
  4. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    In other words Moses & Noah & Abraham & David etc never went to heaven (John 3:13) since they didn't repent and didn't believe in Jesus, even though David was his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:7), although Acts 24:15 says that both the unjust and just will be resurrected which is why 1Tim 4;9-11 says that unbelievers are saved anyway.

    But why did Peter deny knowing Jesus and curse him, and was that to avoid being executed by the Romans for sedition too (Luke 22:28-33 Matt 27:74)?
     
    #304 Mitty, Aug 30, 2020
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  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Prophecy (Daniel's) pointed to the first century and that is why those first-century people were in 'expectation ' of Messiah coming - Luke 3:15
    Jesus could have basically appeared at any time, because the ' return ' would come at God's future time for him to act again.
    In other words, the passing of time is allowed so that we could be born and think who we would want as Sovereign over us.
    The passing of time would allow time for all nations of Earth to hear about God's kingdom (Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8)

    By the 'reading of hearts' then God could discern what we can't, that is why it is wrong to impute a bad of wrong motive to others.

    To me it was Abraham who needed to discuss.
    Seems as if Genesis 18:20-21 is about investigation: Getting to know through investigation the truthfulness of the matter at hand.
    Abraham found it unthinkable for God to destroy the righteous with the wicked - see Genesis 18:25
    God shows his patience with Abraham and did Not mind all of Abraham's questions.

    God is Not omnipresent but God has a home location as per 1 Kings 8:30,34,39,45,49 ( however No ZIP code is listed )
    There are things that God can Not do - God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18
     
    #305 URAVIP2ME, Aug 30, 2020
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  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, they did repent, and yes they did put faith in Messiah coming. When they are resurrected they will know Jesus proved to be Messiah.

    God is the Savior of all men (humanity) because Jesus' blood covers - see 1 John 5:7
    However, because ALL will Not accept Jesus is why Matthew 20:28 says Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all.
    This is why the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' as mentioned at Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35
     
  7. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    But why did the god need to discuss the number of righteous children with Abraham anyway? And why did the god need to walk down to Sodom to count them for itself after sharing a meal with Abraham (Gen 18)?
    Or is that just another biblical fantasy story?
     
    #307 Mitty, Aug 30, 2020
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  8. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    Where does the bible say that Abraham believed in Jesus and that he repented for having a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and committing adultery with Hagar?


    Or is that because biblical morality is just man-made, including the ten commandments etc since they didn't apply to Abraham and his ancestors, and why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel, or for Noah's father to kill a young man (Gen 4)?

    But either way 1Tim 4:9-11 says that unbelievers are saved anyway.

    And do you have any evidence to support your claim that Abraham believed that Jesus was the liberator (ie messiah) of the Jews from Roman oppression?
     
    #308 Mitty, Aug 30, 2020
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  9. mmarco

    mmarco Member

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    Probably you have missed some of my posts.
    Let me try to explain the reason why Christ's passion is a sign of God's love for us.

    I believe that God loves us infinitely, and He desires to lead each of us to the true life and true and eternal happiness, a condition existing only in communion with God. But God cannot tolerate evil and sin, because they are incompatible with His good and holy nature. A deep interior change is then necessary for all of us to reach the eternal happiness; we must be sanctified and purified from all our evil and sinful desires. God has the power to change us but He wants to do that with our consent. In fact God has chosen to create man with a free will, He wants to respect our free will. Man cannot really accept to be changed by God and he cannot be in comunion with God as long as even a shadow of doubt and distrust remains in his heart ( it must be stressed that such a distrust may exist even without the man is aware of it, at the unconscious level).
    In order to destroy every shadow of doubt and distrust in our heart, God has chosen to give us the greatest proof of love that may exist: Christ's Passion.

    In conclusion, it is our obstinate egoism, pride, sinful desires and distrust in God that makes Christ's Passion necessary for our salvation.
    God has chosen to suffer a terrible death in order to convince us that He loves us immensely so that we might choose to abandon evil and commit entirely ourselves to Him.
     
  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Happiness isn't a goal in my life. And to be eternally happy sounds like a permanent drug trip. I enjoy moments of happiness, but those moments are fleeting and not always for good reasons.
    Being satisfied and content in life is a much more worthwhile pursuit then the ultimate hedonist paradise.
    Happiness is fleeting. Being satisfied in life lasts, and feels better for daily functions.

    Then why doesn't he get rid of them? He is god, so get rid of it if he is so intolerant of them?
    Free will has not been demonstrated to exist, yet we cam definitively demonstrate that while we may have a will, it is very heavily constrained.
    That doesn't make any sense. He's immortal, so he sacrificed basically nothing. He knew his life wouldn't end, he knew it would be less than a blip in the totality of his existence. So it seems like me he chose to inexplicably have a spectacle put on to guilt trip people over something he logically should not have needed to do given his alleged omnipotency.
    It's not love to do something destructive and blame someone else saying "you made me do this." That's understood to be an abusive relationship in any other circumstances.
     
  11. mmarco

    mmarco Member

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    In this case you are certainly not interested in the christian faith, becuase the meaning of the christian faith is to teach us how to live the true love and reach the true eternal happiness in heaven


    You must understand that in the person of Christ, God assumed truly the human nature; He was a true man, like each of us, except for sin. Therefore Christ felt pain exactly like any other human being. Christ suffered a terrible painful crucifixion even if He was totally innocent, and He did that out of love for us.
     
  12. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    But where does the bible say that Jesus wanted to be executed for sedition by the Romans, and why he cursed his god by asking it why it had forsaken him (Matt 27:46)?
     
  13. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Because Im nit interested in something that seems to resemble a permanent drug high?
    That doesn't explain why. I am aware of this part of the story. I adked why this had to be and what did an immortal god really sacrifice?
    You haven't addressed any of my questions.
     
  14. mmarco

    mmarco Member

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    Heaven has nothing to do with a permanent drug high; the use of drug is absolutely forbidden in the christian faith becuase it represents the destruction of ourselves.
    In heaven we are perfectly concious and we live a true love for God and for each other.

    I think I did answer, but probably you have misunderstood my meaning.

    Question n. 1) God has chosen to suffer a terrible death in order to convince us that He loves us immensely so that we might choose to abandon evil and trust Him, who is the source of all true love and of all true good.
    Only if we totally trust Him, we can be in communion with Him and be saved.

    Question n. 2) Christ accepted a terrible suffering during His crucifixion; this is a very great sacrifice for a totally innocent person.
     
  15. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I didn't say it is. I said eternal happiness sounds like a permanent drug high. As in, you say eternal happiness and what I have in mind is a never ending state that resembles permanent mild drunkenness or being eternally stoned.
    I need feelings and emotions to feel whole and complete. I like being happy, but being frustrated can be a good thing as it often comes with pursueing worthy goals. Adversity is great, because things get boring if things are always easy. And I love the burn of exercise. It's technically pain, but also a natural body high of endorphins. Eternal happiness doesnt sound appealing. It sounds like a trap, amd even terrible to not have our full range of emotions.
    That answer why he felt it necessary to do that.
    But hes also god, is he not? Isn't it more accurate to suggest instead of horrible suffering that for a human no doubt is aweful, but he's a god. He didn't really die, he came back to life, ascended to the heavens, and knew thats how it would happen. Isn't a human undergoing surgery more comparable? They hurt, they aren't fun, and for all intents and purposes we might as well be momentarily dead as far as conscience is concerned. But we wake up, hurt and ache as we recover, are left with scars, but typically we don't really sacrifice anything despite the bodily trauma that typically comes as a part of surgery.


     
  16. mmarco

    mmarco Member

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    I can only say that I disagree with your idea that eternal happiness can be boring; true love is never boring.

    Certainly, Christ came back to life, but the pain He suffered was real pain, and my point is that accepting such a terrible pain is a sacrifice. Crucifixion is a terrible torture, not comparable with surgery.
     
  17. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Happiness and love are not the same emotions, nor are all types of love the same. Sometimes love can even bring anger and frustration. And love is easy when everybody is happy. Love is real when people are miserable and suffering those they love. That is how you know who loves you. Not those who around during happy times, but those who are there to give you a helping hand and shoulder to cry on when things are at their worst.
    He's immortal though. Sure, it hurt, but it was very temporary, very short lived, and was really just one lousy weekend, a grand total of less than a blip on the radar of eternity. He gave up nothing. He lost nothing. He died, but allegedly came back to life.
    And you still havemt answered why it had to be brutal bloodshed and not just getting rid of this "sin" outright. He's supposed to omnipotent, and what he is portrayed as doing in the Bible, doing away with sin and evil would certainly be within his abilities. But he doesn't. Why?
     
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  18. mmarco

    mmarco Member

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    Again, we can only agree to disagree about this point; I think that crucifixion was an atrocious torture and the fact that Christ accepted such an atrocious suffering is the ultimate and greatest proof of love that God could give us.

    However, you must understand that God offers to all of us an eternal life in heaven; the duration of our eartly life is nothing in comparison with eternal life: in fact, one day or a hundred years are both nothing in comparison with eternity. Nevertheless, when we are suffering, our suffering is real and it counts.



    Because God created man with a free-will, and He respects our free-will; If God got rid of our sins without our free assent and cooperation, He would destroy our free-will, which implies the destruction of the essence of the human being.
    Therefore, God can save us from evil only by convincing us to trust Him, by convincing us that He loves us, by convincing us that He is good and merciful. This is why He accepted to suffer crucifixion in the person of Christ. In fact, only if we fully trust Him and His goodness, we can freely allow Him to purify us from our sins and sanctify us.
     
  19. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    But what did Jesus achieve if he sacrificed himself to be executed for sedition, given he didn't liberate the Jewish people from suppression by the Romans? Or is that why his followers expected him to return in their lifetimes?
     
  20. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    So what should Jesus have done to avoid being executed for sedition and asking his god why it had forsaken him?
     
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