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Featured Why I’m not atheist or agnostic.

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Xavier Graham, Aug 8, 2022.

  1. Xavier Graham

    Xavier Graham Your local anarchist. God is Love is Love is Love

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    I have a hunch that there is a higher power(s), what we humans call god(s). Relying on my intuition here.
    Life is too trippy for there not to be a god I think. Everything works perfectly, the universe is ordered. The potential of our brains and the thoughts it can produce is too amazing (for me) to not be intelligently designed or divine in nature.
    Do you follow your gut when it comes to belief in god? What does it tell you?
     
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  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Not even an informed opinion? I'm underwhelmed. Just out of curiosity, why did you think it to be something worth sharing?
     
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  3. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

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    My gut says what do you mean by "god" (especially since the lack of upper case).
     
  4. Xavier Graham

    Xavier Graham Your local anarchist. God is Love is Love is Love

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    :) An informed opinion would make on an agnostic I think. Isn’t belief in god simply a deeply rooted conviction that is a hunch? Is belief in god an informed opinion for anyone? Is it for you?
    Edit: I always appreciate the dryness of your responses, actually do.
     
  5. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    What makes you think ithe universe is ordered?

    Everything falls apart eventually and our milky way will no longer exist when it some day collides with Andromeda.

    That 'order' is an illusion and there is enough chaos out there to remind us of that.
     
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  6. 1137

    1137 Wandering in Darkness / Priest of Set
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    For me the big ones are:

    1. The commonality of divine experience
    2. The nature of the mind
     
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  7. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    I'm fine with your hunch, more power to you.
    This seems overstated though.
     
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  8. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Kind of hard to see how these are arguments of any particular import. Hunches are frequently wrong, sometimes disastrously so.

    But what can it mean to say "life is too trippy for there not to be a god?" Is life "trippy" (as you put it) for everyone on earth? Or does that mostly apply to you and your small circle?

    And when you say "everything works perfectly," I immediately go to earthquakes, tsunamis, cancer and about a million other things that plague humanity. (If I were an animal, I'd include humanity itself among those plagues, since the animal world does not benefit "perfectly" from our predations and carelessness.)

    So yes, I follow my gut. And my gut say, "no gods, no how."
     
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  9. Suave

    Suave Simulated character
    It's My Birthday!

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    "A few years ago, a team of Kazakh scientists published a paper claiming to have discovered a Wow! signal in the genetic code of living beings. The code structure, so they claimed, is statistically so striking that its origin could be explained only by the presumption of an intelligent actor. The paper, published in Icarus, was somewhat off-topic since Icarus is a journal for planetary science rather than molecular biology or evolution. Since then, the paper has been celebrated as evidence for the extraterrestrial origin of the genetic code by support-ers of ancient astronauts and by the intelligent design movement; see, for example, here, here, and here, as well as this arti-cle in a German creationist journal. What’s it all about?

    Ominous divisor 37 as a design signal

    The authors of the paper are the mathematician Vladimir shCherbak from Al-Farabi University in Kazakhstan and the physicist Maxim Makukov from the Fessenkow Astrophysical Institute. The publisher of Icarus, a refereed journal, is the American Astronomical Society (AAS), an association of professional astronomers. The journal is mainly de-voted to initial publications in planetary scienceand is neither esoteric nor religious.

    In order to track down the alleged Wow! signal, shCherbak and Makukov first divided the 20 genetically encoded amino acids into two groups: In the first group, they listed all amino acids that are sufficiently defined by the first two bases of a base triplet (meaning that any change of the third base would not change the amino acid) (Fig. 1). A base triplet or codon is a sequence of three bases (“letters”) on the genetic molecule DNA (or on the RNA) coding for a specific amino acid. The authors placed the remaining amino acids into a second group. Then they calculated the nucleon number (molecular weight) of every amino acid in both groups, as well as the nucleon number of every amino acid basic structure (“block nucleons”) and side chain. Finally, they sorted the numbers and added them up.

    After this operation, shCherbak and Makukov came across numerical ratios in which the divisor 37 appears again and again: In the first group, the nucleon sum of all side chains is 333 (= 37 x 3²), that of all “block nucleons” 592 (= 37 x 4²), and the total 925 = (37 x 5²). Moreover: “With 037 cancelled out, this leads to 3² + 4² = 5² – representation of the Egyptian triangle…” (p. 6). The number 37 also appears in the second group; the total number of nucleons in the amino acids is 1110 (= 30 x 37).

    [​IMG]
    Fig. 1. Structure of the side chains of those eight amino acids which are clearly defined by their first two codon bases. Side chains and their nucleon numbers (molecular weights) are shown in ascending order. The total is 333. However, this requires targeted manipulation (here: with proline). Further explanation in the text.
    shCherbak and Makukov discuss various other examples using different sorting and exchange operations. Another one is discussed in Fig. 2. In all those cases, the divisor 37 appears prominently.

    [​IMG]
    Fig. 2 There are 24 codons, each with three very different bases (A, T, G, and C). shCherbak and Makukov arranged those codons in such a way that their nucleic bases are interchanged according to certain rules: Within each “block” of 3 codons, the first nucleic base is shifted from one row to the next one onto the third position. From block to block, A is exchanged for G, and T for C (and vice versa). On the left and right column, the codons are arranged mirror-imaged. Next to each codon, it is noted which amino acid it codes for, and the molecular weight of the side chains and whole molecules is noted. In total, there are numbers that are completely divisible by 37. Source: shCherbak and Makukov, p. 5.

    According to the authors, the frequent appearance of “37”, the emergence of “Egyptian triangles”, etc. are far beyond the statistical significance of randomly generated patterns. Thus, these appearances cannot be explained by natural processes since they are not relevant for biological function. The number “0” is also represented, as a corresponding symbol for start/stop codons. The authors claim: “Nature is indifferent to numerical languages contrived by intelligence to represent quantities, including zero”. Such a “privileged numerical system is therefore a reliable sign of artificiality” (p. 4). Ergo: “Whatever the actual reason behind the decimal system in the code, it appears that it was invented outside the solar system already several billions [of] years ago” (p. 8)."

    Does the genetic code reveal a Wow! signal?<br/> A team of scientists claim evidence for "intelligent design" (pandasthumb.org)

    Reference: The "Wow! signal" of the terrestrial genetic code
    Author: Vladimir I. shCherbak, Maxim A. Makukov
    Publish Year: 2013
    Cite as: arXiv:1303.6739 [q-bio_OT]
    DOI: 10.1016/j.icarus.2013.02.017
    Journal reference: Icarus, 2013, 224 (1), 228-242

    The &#x0201C;Wow! signal&#x0201D; of the terrestrial genetic code (earth-chronicles.ru)
     
  10. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Odd. A lot of people (I'm one, just for example) have no "divine experience" whatever.

    And what, in your opinion, is "the nature of the human mind?" That's just a tad on the vague side, you know?
     
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  11. Xavier Graham

    Xavier Graham Your local anarchist. God is Love is Love is Love

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    Perhaps I'm just trying to convince myself not to become an atheist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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  12. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    I'm not prepared to do the work, but I'd bet someone could do some pretty decent job of explaining of all that just by understanding the structure of the electron shells of the atom -- with the valence shells determining how atoms can interact with one another, and thus pretty much explaining how chemistry works.

    (For the record, I'm not a chemist, and cannot be trusted to say anything reliable about the subject.)
     
    #12 Evangelicalhumanist, Aug 8, 2022
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  13. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Why? If you need to be convinced, perhaps that's a clue that you don't really believe what you vaguely seem to suppose you do.
     
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  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Perhaps you're right. I tend to use "hunch" as meaning a guess of little import made with little conviction - hence phrases like "it's just a hunch." It could be that this connotation is mine alone, but I have a hunch that this is not the case.

    Not yet.

    That's very kind.
     
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  15. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan From Omniverse to Omnitheism

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    I'm not an atheist or an agnostic because my very experience of life has led me to determine that there are absolutes. The absolute of things and beings. Humans may not exist forever but things will, in an ever-increasing entropic Universe heading towards heat death. The absolute of things paired together with what seems to be a forever existing change of entropy and extropy has allowed me to deduce that these concepts are eternal and I exalt them in my own version of trinitarian pantheism. Thing, or Being, or the Verse, combined with the changes that happen to it, which ultimately boil to entropy and extropy, are how I see and understand God, and I experience this on a daily and consistent basis. I know God because I know reality. If you simply take what already exists and boil them down to the absolutes they are: the Verse, the Entropy and the Extropy you would understand this too.
     
  16. Suave

    Suave Simulated character
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    The significance of the numeric or semantic message 037 embedded in our genetic code is well-explained as follows:

    Information is an innate attribute of something conveyed by patterns/sequential order to something which processes the conveyance of patterns/sequential order into meaningful data. We creatures using a base-10 numbering system would best understand a mathematical message that's been broadcast to us in the language of a base-10 numbering system.

    “There is no plausible chemical logic to couple directly the triplets and the amino acids. In other words, the principles of chemistry where not the sought essence of the genetic code”

    “The zero is the supreme abstraction of arithmetic. Its use by any alphabet, including the genetic code, can be an indicator of artificiality.”

    "The place-value decimal system represented through digital symmetry of the numbers divisible by prime number (PN 037). This arithmetical syntactic feature is an innate attribute of the genetic code. The PN 037 notation with a leading zero emphasizes zero's equal participation in the digital symmetry. Numbers written by identical digits are devised by PN 037*3=111 and 1+1+1=3 and appear regularly [from the figure: 037*6 =222 and 2+2+2=6, 037*9=333 and 3+3+3 =9, 037*4=444 and 4+4+4=12, 037*15=555 and 5+5+5=15, 037*18=666 and 6+6+6=18, 037*21=777 and 7+7+7 =21. 037*24 =888 and 8+8+8=24, 037*27=999 and 9+9+9=27.)"

    "There is a complete set of information symbols utilizing the decimal syntax 111, 222, 333, 444, 555, 666, 777, 888, 999 in the genetic code. Each of these symbols consists uniformly of a carrier (balanced nucleons) and a meaning (the decimal syntax)."

    Reference: The "Wow! signal" of the terrestrial genetic code. Vladimir l. shCherbak and Maxim A. Makukov. Redirectinghttps://www.scribd.com/document/35302916...netic-Code

    "The first information system emerged on the earth as primordial version of the genetic code and genetic texts. The natural appearance of arithmetic power in such a linguistic milieu is theoretically possible and practical for producing information systems of extremely high efficiency. In this case, the arithmetic symbols should be incorporated into an alphabet, i.e. the genetic code. A number is the fundamental arithmetic symbol produced by the system of numeration. If the system of numeration were detected inside the genetic code, it would be natural to expect that its purpose is arithmetic calculation e.g., for the sake of control, safety, and precise alteration of the genetic texts. The nucleons of amino acids and the bases of nucleic acids seem most suitable for embodiments of digits. These assumptions were used for the analyzing the genetic code.

    The compressed, life-size, and split representation of the Escherichia coli and Euplotes octocarinatus code versions were considered simultaneously. An exact equilibration of the nucleon sums of the amino acid standard blocks and/or side chains was found repeatedly within specified sets of the genetic code. Moreover, the digital notations of the balanced sums acquired, in decimal representation, the unique form 111, 222, …, 999. This form is a consequence of the criterion of divisibility by 037. The criterion could simplify some computing mechanism of a cell if any and facilitate its computational procedure.

    Reference: Biosystems Volume 70, Issue 3, August 2003, Pages 187-209
    "Arithmetic inside the universal genetic code" Author: Vladimir I. shCherbak

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...4703000662

    "Numerous arithmetical regularities of nucleon numbers of canonical amino acids for quite different systematizations of the genetic code, which are dominantly based on decimal number 037, indicate the hidden existence of a more universal ordering principle. Mathematical analysis of number 037 reveals that it is a unique decimal number from which an infinite set of self-similar numbers can be derived with the nested numerical, geometrical, and arithmetical properties, thus enabling the nested coding and computing in the (bio)systems by geometry and resonance. The omnipresent fractal structural and dynamical organization, as well as the intertwining of quantum and classical realm in the physical and biological systems could be just the consequence of such coding and computing."

    Reference: NeuroQuantology | December 2011 | Vol 9 | Issue 4 | Page 702-715 Masic, Natasa Nested Properties of shCherbak’s PQ 037 and (Biological) Coding/Computing Nested Numeric/Geometric/Arithmetic Propertiesof shCherbak’s Prime Quantum 037 as a Base of (Biological) Coding/Computing
     
  17. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Ha! Yup. Just go 'independent'. That way you can crash whichever group's party has the best booze and nibbles on any given day.

    Watch out for atheist parties though. Tends to be beer and wine only. They generally don't believe in spirits...

    Ahem.
     
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  18. 1137

    1137 Wandering in Darkness / Priest of Set
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    Plenty people haven't experienced full body burns, but they still exist.

    The properties of consciousness contradict that of matter
     
  19. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    And what's more, they can be shown to exist.
    Really? So when you see a cliff, you should keep right on running towards it, because there's nothing there at all?
     
  20. idea

    idea Question Everything

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    Our guts are wired to follow the herd.



    All of the above people would seem normal, kind, thoughtful...



    Heaven's gate, to all of the groups... it's not "god", it is your herd instinct.

    For everyone who has been deceived- trusted someone, had "good feelings" about them, then learned they abuse kids - come to understand you were groomed etc. You learn not to trust any feelings, you learn not to trust your gut.

    Empirical evidence verified by multiple independent organizations - that is the closest we have to trustworthy information.
     
    #20 idea, Aug 9, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2022
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