Coz they lack a direction I guess .. There is so much flexibility allowed within Hinduism that ppl doing what they feel is right .. Right from the start Hindus tell their kids of amazing mythological references rather then teaching of Vedas .. Watching Mahabharata and ramayan has unfortunately is more important then learning of Vedas ... None and I mean none of my Hindu friends have any knowledge of Vedas but all know that for them krishna, Rama and shiva are god
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why hindus worship rama,krishna...?
- Thread starter Yuva
- Start date
Coz they lack a direction I guess .. There is so much flexibility allowed within Hinduism that ppl doing what they feel is right .. Right from the start Hindus tell their kids of amazing mythological references rather then teaching of Vedas .. Watching Mahabharata and ramayan has unfortunately is more important then learning of Vedas ... None and I mean none of my Hindu friends have any knowledge of Vedas but all know that for them krishna, Rama and shiva are god
Shuddhasattva
Well-Known Member
again sir, you are posting in the wrong place.
Why is that? If I am then I am more then happy to delete it
Shuddhasattva
Well-Known Member
this thread is for hindus only. it is a same faith debate.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
dear shuddhasattva ji ,
just out of curiosity may I ask (not just of you but of everyone present )
what is the point of keeping this a same faith debate ???
surely those who profess the same faith particularly hindu need not debate ?
there are so many sects within hinduism that agreement hardly seems nececary , we each take to the sect with which we feel the most affinity .
sadly debates here tend to end up in a battle of veiw verses veiw , which tend to become personal and lead no one towards godliness but simply inflame the ego and end in intrenched ignorance .
what do we learn from this ?
surely if a sikh born and raised amongst hindus wishes to engage in conversation with a hindu it is not much different to my wishing to discuss both buddhism and hinduism which I frequently do .
speaking again for myself I have found that as the years pass I feel less and less inclinde to push any veiw but have found that from an openminded exchange there is much to be learnt . from a buddhist dharmic perspective I can undestand the sikhs veiw just as from the buddhist vajrayana and tantric perspectives I can understand the devotion of the bhakti and yoga schools within hinduism .
as ones wisdom increases the boundarys melt away and I can apreciate equaly the heartfelt veivs of another even share with them an equal love of god .
if a hindu can accept the love of rama , krsna or siva in eachother , if we can meet each other with a greeting of jai sri rama or jai sri krsna then what difference is there in the greeting of sat sri akaal ?
personaly I am happy to discuss with anyone of faith providing that they do not addopt the stance of ..." mine is the only path "
we are all quite blind to the true glory of god , who then are we to argue and debate ???
just out of curiosity may I ask (not just of you but of everyone present )
what is the point of keeping this a same faith debate ???
surely those who profess the same faith particularly hindu need not debate ?
there are so many sects within hinduism that agreement hardly seems nececary , we each take to the sect with which we feel the most affinity .
sadly debates here tend to end up in a battle of veiw verses veiw , which tend to become personal and lead no one towards godliness but simply inflame the ego and end in intrenched ignorance .
what do we learn from this ?
surely if a sikh born and raised amongst hindus wishes to engage in conversation with a hindu it is not much different to my wishing to discuss both buddhism and hinduism which I frequently do .
speaking again for myself I have found that as the years pass I feel less and less inclinde to push any veiw but have found that from an openminded exchange there is much to be learnt . from a buddhist dharmic perspective I can undestand the sikhs veiw just as from the buddhist vajrayana and tantric perspectives I can understand the devotion of the bhakti and yoga schools within hinduism .
as ones wisdom increases the boundarys melt away and I can apreciate equaly the heartfelt veivs of another even share with them an equal love of god .
if a hindu can accept the love of rama , krsna or siva in eachother , if we can meet each other with a greeting of jai sri rama or jai sri krsna then what difference is there in the greeting of sat sri akaal ?
personaly I am happy to discuss with anyone of faith providing that they do not addopt the stance of ..." mine is the only path "
we are all quite blind to the true glory of god , who then are we to argue and debate ???
ratikala
Istha gosthi
dear prabhu ji's
having served for many years in a temple one comes to see the diversity of any comunity there are allways those who follow out of tradition , they accept because their families have accepted for countless generations , I see it not so much blindness but trust , Faith ! then there are those who are of more enquiring nature who take to the study of all scripture some of these studious ones are hungry for knowledge of god , some are hungry for name and fame , hungry for power , position to be revered for their accheivements , these are the ones with a taste for debate , Huhh I will defeat you by my knowledge of scripture ! these my freinds are the blind , for those who have gleaned true knowledge from their studies share their love of god for the want of enlightening another .
that love of god can be atained equaly through the most simple devotion , or through study , but it is not through inteligence nor through method or path but through humility that one finds the true goal .
we should not judge anothers atainment but look more closely into our own hearts and ask why we want to know god , why we have chosen to study , and what we have accheived ?
when another accepts rama , siva or krsna as god we canot know what their understanding is , we canot know how simple , how refined , we can only rejoice in their faith not label it blindness .
having served for many years in a temple one comes to see the diversity of any comunity there are allways those who follow out of tradition , they accept because their families have accepted for countless generations , I see it not so much blindness but trust , Faith ! then there are those who are of more enquiring nature who take to the study of all scripture some of these studious ones are hungry for knowledge of god , some are hungry for name and fame , hungry for power , position to be revered for their accheivements , these are the ones with a taste for debate , Huhh I will defeat you by my knowledge of scripture ! these my freinds are the blind , for those who have gleaned true knowledge from their studies share their love of god for the want of enlightening another .
that love of god can be atained equaly through the most simple devotion , or through study , but it is not through inteligence nor through method or path but through humility that one finds the true goal .
we should not judge anothers atainment but look more closely into our own hearts and ask why we want to know god , why we have chosen to study , and what we have accheived ?
when another accepts rama , siva or krsna as god we canot know what their understanding is , we canot know how simple , how refined , we can only rejoice in their faith not label it blindness .
Krishna Chaitanya
krishnadas
I am not sure of the source of these statements and hence think such statements are not based on scriptural evidence.
For example: If one has to prove the claim that there is no Rama, Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva in Vedas, you have to show that IN ALL THE VEDIC LITERATURE (in all those thousands of verses over there), there is not a single indication of them. On the contrary, I can show many evidences from VEDIC literature where the authenticity of the supreme Lord is clearly established.
Further, I have not mastered any Veda, and IMHO, Vyasa (the composer) and the great acharyas like Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva, Caitanya are authorties over the Vedas.
And when they all accept the authority of the supremacy of Lord Sri Krishna and Lord Rama, I would tend to believe them instead of unauthentic sources. They also quote the important position of Lord Shiva and I am very positive on it.
This is what Shankara has to say about Krishna:
ekam sastram devaki-putra-gitam
eko devo devaki-putra eva
eko mantras tasya namani yani
karmapy ekam tasya devasya seva (Gita-mahatmya 7)
Shankara's advice: Bhaja Govindam Bhaja Govindam Govindam bhaja mudha mateh. He composed it when he saw an old brahmana in Varanasi teaching grammar to his students and this was the advice offered by Shankara. (Ref: Bhaja Govindam Wiki)
Ramanuja clearly established the supremacy of Srimann Narayana as the infalliable truth. If one really wants to know, he/she needs to go into details of the Vishistavadita philoshopy.
The worshipable deity of Madhva is Bala Krishna.
In case of Lord Caitanya, he cleared accept Sri Krishna as the supreme absolute truth.
Other exalted personalities also accepted the supremacy of Krishna like Vallabha, Nimbarka etc.
As far as the Vedic evidence is concerned, there is already a lot evidence provided by some here.
Here is one from Rg Veda:
om tad vishno paramam padagm
sada pashyanti surayah
diviva cakshur-atatam
tad vipraso vipanyavo jagrivagm sa
samindhate vishnor yat paramam padam
“Just as the sun’s rays in the heavens are extended to the mundane organ of light, so do the godly souls always look to the abode of Lord Vishnu, which is supreme. Inasmuch as such twice-born men are worthy of praise and are awake to the spiritual stratum, they are able to exhibit the Supreme Abode, which is Lord Vishnu’s.”-Rg Veda (1.22.20)
Here are some from the Katha Upanishad:
pra te bravimi tad u me nibodha
svargyam agnim naciketah prajanan
ananta-lokaptim atho pratishtham
viddhi tvam etan nihitam guhayam
Translation
(Yama said) O Naciketa, I am conversant with the sacred fire that can award salvation, and will describe Him to you. Know Him to be the means to enter the unlimited abode of Vishnu, the support of the universe, and He who resides in the hearts of all creatures.
Commentary
Madhvacarya states that the Agni mentioned in this verse is Lord Hari, who resides in the sacred fire. Lord Vishnu is ‘Ananta Lokaptim’ – the means of attaining the unlimited, spiritual kingdom – and none other.
yas tu avijnanavan bhavati
samanskah sada shucih
sa tu tat-padam apnoti
yasmad bhuyo na jayate
Translation
But one who possesses transcendental knowledge, who is equipoised, and is always pure at heart, verily, he attains the abode of Lord Vishnu, from whence he never returns.
vijnana-sarathir yas tu
manah pragrahavan narah
so’dhvanah param apnoti
tad-vishnoh paramam padam
Translation
One who has realised knowledge of the Absolute as his charioteer and who takes his mind in rein, reaches the limit of the road (of material bondage) and attains the Supreme Destination, the abode of Lord Vishnu, the Personality of Godhead.
For making context in the last two verses, observe that the parmam padam in the last verse refers to tad-vishnoh and it is the same tat-padam used in the previous verse.
In the above, I did not quote from Bhagavad Gita and the non-mukhya upansihads just to show that there are other scriptures that conclude the same. There are practically innumerable evidences in Bhagavad Gita and many in the other 98 upanishads that confirm the supremacy of Krishna and conclude that he the same paramatma that upanishads and Vedas are glorifying:
Katha Upanishad (2.2.13) - BG 10.8, BG 7.7 (He is the eko bahunam who does vidhadhati kaman)
Mundaka Upansihad (3.1.1) - BG 15.15 (Clearly, he says that I AM THE PARAMATMA, seating in everyone's heart)
Arjuna testifying Krishna's supremacy: 10.12, 10.13 - And is supported by Asita, Devala, Vyasa (the author of Vedas), Narada - so I would count on it!
Further, no other deity in has ever claimed unambiguously that he is the supreme by his own words. But you will find few instances where Krishna comes down to level of explaining to Arjuna that I, THE SUPREME LORD (BG 7.7) is present with you... Now don't worry, just go and fight, I will take care. He also proved it by his miraculous pastimes - Govardhan Lila, Vishvarupa darshan etc.
Now after all of these, if someone thinks that its not a big deal as Krishna never existed and people spun a myth out of nothing and concocted the Bhagavad Gita, then I beg to differ. Refer to: www(dot)saraswatifilms(dot)org/movies(dot)php and I am sure you will find meaningful evidence from may angles to show that Krishna existed really. Further, if Bhagavad was an ordinary paper churned out by a falliable person, it wouldn't stand the test of time (as there would be many updates floating around showing that Krishna's words were valid only for that particular time) and can't be considered infalliable as Shankara mentions. And the proof that he is the Adi Narayana is relayed in the conversation between Yudhistira and Bhisma. Further, during the appearance and Brahma Vimohana lila, Krishna shows the form of Naryana/Vishnu indicating how is non-different from Sri Vishnu.
And whoever has issues with parents teaching their children about Ramayana and Mahabharatha alone have to take the initiative to learn and preach the message of Vedas like what Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva, Caitanya did to such children. That would be great asset as the children will not be carried away thinking that they are just stories. Further, the morals of the Ramayana and Mahabharata are the application of Vedic knowledge in practice and are better understood by the ordinary people as they may not be smart enough like the extraordinary ones. It is just like a control systems teacher explaining the students with the applications like aircraft or a car, just so that the students get a real feeling of the theoretical knowledge and can grasp it better.
The extra-ordinary ones are the jnanis (I am not joking, I mean it with all due respect to them), who renounce everything and do jnana yoga for many lifetimes and finally come to the lotus feet of the supreme lord. (Ref. BG 7.19). IT IS NOT AT ALL EASY. I don't have that caliber and if someone feels that they may have, great... go ahead and good luck with your practice!
As far as the chronological order is concerned, Ramayana happens in every Treta Yuga when Ramachandra descends. The details of the pastime vary, but the main part is preserved - the living entities in the lila have free will, but because they are associates of the lord, they act in a way to keep the lila going according to the desire of the lord. There is an incident in Ramayana when Jambavan indicates that he knew what was going to happen even before things happened in the same way. This can be attributed to the happening of Ramayana in every divya-yuga of the manvantara. This paragraph is from Puranas and I know some of you may have problems in accepting it.
At the end, my opinion is that INFORMATION NOT ACCOMPANIED BY TRANSFORMATION OF HEART IS OF LITTLE USE. So, by spending time with these sacred scriptures, I just hope that my desire to serve the supreme lord increases and thus become purified.
And thanks all those who spent time composing and reading the posts. Best wishes for success in your spiritual life.
Chaitanya
PS. The Vedas are the manual for guiding the living entities to quit the material world and join the eternal spiritual world. The living entities come over the material world with a desire to enjoy independently of God. So, the Karma Kanda section of the Vedas gradually elevates them to thinking about higher life - i.e. jnana kanda. For the materially motivated, they do mention something about the devotion for material benefit to the devathas. So, there is not much need for the Vedas to describe the intimates pastimes of the lord (Rama and Krishna) to those living entities who are absorbed in material life. coz the author knows that, if the conditioned living entities are taught about pure devotion etc., they will just reply - WE HAVE LOTS OF WORK HERE, GO AND DO YOUR WORK!.
So, in very few places, there are hints. Example: the the supreme lord is full of rasa (rasovaisah - Brahma Sutras/Taittiriya Upanishad). From that point on, the pastimes are detailed in Ramayana and Mahabharata as well as the puranas. When the completely realized jnani (like Suka etc) hears about them, they get instantaneously attracted and complete the journey back to the spiritual abode.
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I totally agree with you Rama, krishna, shiva are not our true gods. Our true gods are Pushan, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, Indra, Soma, Rudra, Aruna, Savitri etc.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
agreed these are gods , but who then is the supreme being , the eternal being without begining without end the origin of all ?
the god of all gods ?
Shuddhasattva
Well-Known Member
Among generals I am Skanda, lord of war.
Savitur becomes Pushan, Mitra, Aruna, Hiranyagarbha, Surya, Aditya etc and hence all these gods reside in Savitur, Agni and Soma reside in the garbha of Savitur and not the other way round and hence Savitur is the god of all gods and what's behind him is Who(ka)? Don't ask me what is that, that is beyond him.
Krishna Chaitanya
krishnadas
The supreme lord is the cause of all causes and hence, from him everything emanates - janmady asya yatah (Vedanta Sutra 1.1.2). Please refer to BG 10.8 and you will find strikingly similar features of how actually Krishna is THE ONE in whom all take shelter, be they devathas or manavas or any other specie.
As Shuddhasattva and Jainarayan mentioned, his opulence amongst those class of devas are represented by the highly qualified individual devas (to which he refers to).
Further, one needs to understand the purpose of Vedas and otherwise, there will be apparent contradictions. For example: A teacher says that you need to get immersed in singing so much that you need to say everything through songs. Then one day when the teachers house is burning, the student slowly tells him in the form a beautiful song. But you all would know that he understood the instruction, but not the spirit/purpose of it.
As I previously mentioned:
The Vedas are the manual for guiding the living entities to quit the material world and join the eternal spiritual world. The living entities come over to this material world with a desire to enjoy independently of God. THE GOAL IS TO ELEVATE THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE LIVING ENTITIES AND VEDAS ASSUME THE MOOD OF A COMPASSIONATE MOTHER IN DOING THIS ACTIVITY.
So, for all classes of people, they mention reformatory process. This is what makes Vedic life all inclusive - it can elevate both a chandala (dog eater) as well as a brahmana (one who has acheived a considerable degree of elevation). Example: Those attached to work seek shelter and elevation from the Karma Kanda section of the Vedas, intellectuals from jnana kanda and people with a devotional inclination but materially attached in the upasana kanda. This is the reason why Krishna says: 'traigunyo VISHAYA vedah' (BG 2.45). He is the father (bija pradah pita - BG 14.4) and the Vedas are like the mother. He says that because knows the mood of the Vedas (as a mother).
So, there is not much need for the Vedas to describe the intimates pastimes of the lord (Rama and Krishna) as the conditioned living entities are absorbed in material life and they need to get out of there to appreciate them. An incomplete analogy would be: Two professors are discussing the highest topics of erudtion on a subject matter (say physics), whereas a student struggling to even understand the basic concepts of physics will not be able to appreciate it and he will just think that these people are wasting their lives in useless activity. So, only when one gets completely free from materialistic conception of life, can one appreciate the beauty and activities of the supreme lord.
However, in very few places in the Vedas, there are hints. Example: the the supreme lord is full of rasa (rasovaisah - Brahma Sutras/Taittiriya Upanishad). From that point on, the pastimes are detailed in Ramayana and Mahabharata as well as the puranas. When the completely realized jnani (like Suka etc) hears about them, he/she gets instantaneously attracted and completes journey back to the spiritual abode.
And because there always exist different logics and room for many thoughts (from one's own perspective), the Mahabharatha (Vana-parva 313.117) recommends:
tarko pratisthah srutayo vibhinna
nasav rsir yasya matam na bhinnam
dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam
mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
"Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not
differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the
Vedas, which are vaiegated, one cannot come to the right path by which
religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles
is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated self-realized person.
Consequently, as the sastras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive
path the mahajanas advocate."
So, there is no ambiguity about the supremacy of Sri Krishna/Vishnu - these are very clear at least using a combination of the Vedas and all great acharyas like Vyasa, Shankara, Madhva, Ramanuja, Caitanya etc. as authorities.
Thanks,
Chaitanya
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