Why God allows Evil

[lewisnotmiller]

What do you mean by "life experience"?

Sometimes when people talk about 'free will', I get the impression they think that any two people, faced with a dilemma, face the same decision, and have the same opportunity to choose 'right' or 'wrong'. I was wondering if that is your view.

Or, alternatively, do you think other factors (eg. life experience) impact on their ability to make the 'right' choice?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

He cannot violate people's free will.
So ... definitely not omnipotent.

But He surely can do all the things that do not violate people's free will.

Can't or won't?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Theologians nowadays affirm that most of the Ancient Testament is allegorical.
Otherwise we should believe that Earth was created in seven days.

Allegory does indicate some message or basis in fact. So I find myself still wondering about the god behind the allegory and how different he appears to be to the Trinitarian God of the NT. Perhaps for another thread.

 

[Estro Felino]

Sometimes when people talk about 'free will', I get the impression they think that any two people, faced with a dilemma, face the same decision, and have the same opportunity to choose 'right' or 'wrong'. I was wondering if that is your view.

Or, alternatively, do you think other factors (eg. life experience) impact on their ability to make the 'right' choice?

I think that's a very good question. Life experience does play an essential role.
But most of the times I think people are aware they are committing evil. And still they do it.

 

[Estro Felino]

Can't or won't?

God is very different than us so I think that His nature is much more complex (or maybe much simpler) than ours. So I guess according to God's nature, can and will are the same thing. He can't and won't.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Why does He allow evil?
That is the mantra that several, not to say many, atheists usually point out, whenever they want to underline the Christian doctrine contradictions.

Why does He do that? Because He is not a dictator.
God's Order is not any different than politics.
There is the party of Good, led by Jesus. And there is the party of evil, led by Satan.

There are Jesus' servants and there are Lucifer's servants. They belong to two different parties.
As Matthew 13,49 says, the wicked and the just. The first fight for the sake of good, the second for the sake of evil.
So if He were a dictator, He would prevent evil people from having a say.
He would prevent them from joining "politics". From doing evil.

He does not do that because
1) He is not a dictator
2) He respects people's free will
3) He hopes they can choose the party of Good by themselves


It is Satan that would like to be a dictator by killing all the good people, and ruling Earth with his wicked politicians .
But he is not allowed to do that. He is forced to respect democracy, as God does.

The problem is that to have this justification on why God allows evil, one has to believe there is a Satan, and that the world exists on these black-and-white principles (ie God exists. Satan exists. God is good. Satan is evil).

So I'm not saying your idea is bad. I'm just saying that convincing an atheist there's a Satan is half the battle.

 

[Brian2]

Seems to me you have misunderstood or are misrepresenting what atheists are saying.

If I had the power to stop evil acts happening I would step in and stop them. If I had knowledge of a child being tortured and did nothing to stop it I would consider myself as guilty as the torturer.

You sound like you are on the side of Christians who want to get into politics and force Christian values onto everyone.
Where do you think it stops. Does God step in with a child being tortured and not with a child being bullied. Does God step in with a child being bullied and not with someone throwing a rock through a window? How seemingly innocuous would the evil have to be for you to think it is OK for God to ignore it?
Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time.
Was this a good time for God to step in or does God get condemned for stepping in then with the flood?
Is it a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't, so God is doing things His way and looking for the long term good and not the short term.
Then in the long term, making sure that real justice is given for everyone and restore what people have lost because of evil, so that the short term suffering is forgotten.
That is not saying that it is good for us to stand back and do nothing when we see evil, but we are not God and cannot see and work towards a long term good by doing that.

 

[Brian2]

There are so many examples of Yahweh acting out because people did something that upset him.
In Habakkuk 3 he smashes mountains and grew horns out of his hands to kill everyone who bothered Habakkuk. Sending Satan to kill 70,000 for a petty reason completely dismantles what you are saying.

Those people also had free will.
Then in the NT he comes down as his demigod son and does all kinds of things to ease suffering?

What do you mean by party of good and party of Satan? Or it is Satan who wants to do evil?
Yahweh sent Satan to kill 70,000 people? TWICE?? He sent him to do all sorts of evil? Satan worked for Yahweh?

In 2 Samuel 24, Yahweh sends the "Angel of Yahweh" to inflict a plague against Israel for three days, killing 70,000 people as punishment for David having taken a census without his approval.[16] 1 Chronicles 21:1 repeats this story,[16] but replaces the "Angel of Yahweh" with an entity referred to as "a satan".[16]

Some passages clearly refer to the satan, without using the word itself.[17] 1 Samuel 2:12 describes the sons of Eli as "sons of Belial";[18] the later usage of this word makes it clearly a synonym for "satan".[18] In 1 Samuel 16:14–23 Yahweh sends a "troubling spirit" to torment King Saul as a mechanism to ingratiate David with the king.[19] In 1 Kings 22:19–25, the prophet Micaiah describes to King Ahab a vision of Yahweh sitting on his throne surrounded by the Host of Heaven.[18] Yahweh asks the Host which of them will lead Ahab astray.[18] A "spirit", whose name is not specified, but who is analogous to the satan, volunteers to be "a Lying Spirit in the mouth of all his Prophets".[18]

Reading incidents in the OT and calling them Yahweh acting out because someone upset Him just indicates our willingness to condemn even in the face of our ignorance, and indicates our willingness to not try to understand the bigger issues at stake in what God has done.

 

[blü 2]

I guess many people would want to live forever.
Why doesn't God give them immortality?
That's the same kind of reasoning.

I'd say it was a distinct argument.

The child has a problem it can't be blamed for.

Its individual survival is at stake.

Any ordinarily moral onlooker would help.

And the only free will involved is God's.

As Epicurus is said to have said,

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then [he] is not omnipotent.

Is [he] able but not willing?
Then [he] is malevolent.

Is God both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?

Is [he] neither able nor willing?
Then why call [him] God?​

 

[Brian2]

Theologians nowadays affirm that most of the Ancient Testament is allegorical.
Otherwise we should believe that Earth was created in seven days.

It seems common sense that parts of the OT are allegorical and that the language of pictures is used to describe things but I'm glad I'm not a theologian who says that most of the OT is allegorical.

 

[paradox]

I have to wonder why he set up Hitler.

I don't know why but biblical wars happened not because righteousness of the Jews but because of wickedness of those against who Jews fought. ex. Baal worshipers.
Likewise there are also wrong doing kings mentioned in the bible who didn't follow God's path which serve as an example of what it wrong.

Therefore biblically speaking Hitler's wars weren't fought to praise Nazis but to punish those against whom they fought while in same time Hitler serves as a good example of what is evil.

 

[blü 2]

Reading incidents in the OT and calling them Yahweh acting out because someone upset Him just indicates our willingness to condemn even in the face of our ignorance, and indicates our willingness to not try to understand the bigger issues at stake in what God has done.

Why did God engineer the human sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter (Judges 11:29-39)?

 

[Brian2]

To what level do you believe how you act and make decisions is impacted by your life experience?

That would probably be to a large extent imo and God knows it also and can judge people accordingly when the time comes.

 

[paradox]

Why did God engineer the human sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter (Judges 11:29-39)?

She obviously had a chance to escape and save her life, but instead come back to be sacrificed. it's was her choice.

 

[Brian2]

Why did God engineer the human sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter (Judges 11:29-39)?

That was a bald assertion and then you expect me to agree with it and come up with reasons God did that.
If the assertion of "engineer" is correct all I could do is come up with guesses as to possible reasons, and you would just dismiss them anyway because your are able to judge God.
Assuming God engineered it, what possible reasons do you see?

 

[Estro Felino]

I'd say it was a distinct argument.

The child has a problem it can't be blamed for.

Its individual survival is at stake.

Any ordinarily moral onlooker would help.

And the only free will involved is God's.

As Epicurus is said to have said,

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then [he] is not omnipotent.

Is [he] able but not willing?
Then [he] is malevolent.

Is God both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?

Is [he] neither able nor willing?
Then why call [him] God?​

In this world, death exists.
Suffering exists. Illness exists.
We can try to prevent suffering, but we cannot avoid death.

God is not of this world. He belongs to the other world, which has neither space nor time.

So we cannot blame God for all that happens in this worldly dimension.
Man has to understand his own limits.
The limits of this worldly dimension.
This life is not eternal.

 

[wizanda]

Why does He allow evil?

Because in my understanding of what Yeshua reiterated, and many religions stated... Here is the top floor of Hell a.k.a Gehenna (Matthew 23:15).

Yeshua was saying we're all evil in different ways, where only the highest dimensions of Heaven are pure (Luke 11:13).

When we recognize what has been taught is that we've all got inner demons; where if we're self serving we fall lower than here, and when we learn to live our life in service to others, we eventually ascend.

Life is like a training ground for practising to be angelic, and yet we've been indoctrinated to think it is all about acquiring our own contentment.

In my opinion.

 

[MikeF]

IMO

Why does He allow evil?
That is the mantra that several, not to say many, atheists usually point out, whenever they want to underline the Christian doctrine contradictions.

Why does He do that? Because He is not a dictator.
God's Order is not any different than politics.
There is the party of Good, led by Jesus. And there is the party of evil, led by Satan.

There are Jesus' servants and there are Lucifer's servants. They belong to two different parties.
As Matthew 13,49 says, the wicked and the just. The first fight for the sake of good, the second for the sake of evil.
So if He were a dictator, He would prevent evil people from having a say.
He would prevent them from joining "politics". From doing evil.

He does not do that because
1) He is not a dictator
2) He respects people's free will
3) He hopes they can choose the party of Good by themselves


It is Satan that would like to be a dictator by killing all the good people, and ruling Earth with his wicked politicians .
But he is not allowed to do that. He is forced to respect democracy, as God does.

If 'God' of the Christian Bible would be a dictator if he/she/it prevented evil, are we being dictatorial by creating laws and enforcing them such that it acts as a disincentive for people to act freely? Why is law enforcement appropriate for us but not for 'God'?

If 'Satan' kills all the good people, won't they just go to heaven? Isn't getting into heaven the goal? Why fight against that?

 

[Estro Felino]

IMO



If 'God' of the Christian Bible would be a dictator if he/she/it prevented evil, are we being dictatorial by creating laws and enforcing them such that it acts as a disincentive for people to act freely? Why is law enforcement appropriate for us but not for 'God'?

If 'Satan' kills all the good people, won't they just go to heaven? Isn't getting into heaven the goal? Why fight against that?

1) We create laws to punish transgressors because we are secular countries, and we do not think religious principles should guide our governors.

2) I meant that Satan sees good people as an obstacle for his Empire of Evil on Earth.
They are just obstacles.
So eliminating them would favor his project.

 

[blü 2]

She obviously had a chance to escape and save her life, but instead come back to be sacrificed. it's was her choice.

First, no, it was not her choice ─ she did it out of obedience to her father Jephthah. She meanwhile lamented the life she was giving up.

Second, it was the result of a contract which God made with Jephthah, not the other way around ─ God having performed [his] part of the bargain, Jephthah felt obliged to perform his, while bewailing that the human he'd offered to kill was alas his own daughter.

Third, you sound like you're cool with human sacrifice. Really? Seriously?