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Featured Why God allows Evil

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Estro Felino, Aug 2, 2022.

  1. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Sometimes when people talk about 'free will', I get the impression they think that any two people, faced with a dilemma, face the same decision, and have the same opportunity to choose 'right' or 'wrong'. I was wondering if that is your view.

    Or, alternatively, do you think other factors (eg. life experience) impact on their ability to make the 'right' choice?
     
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  2. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Can't or won't?
     
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  3. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Allegory does indicate some message or basis in fact. So I find myself still wondering about the god behind the allegory and how different he appears to be to the Trinitarian God of the NT. Perhaps for another thread.
     
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  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I think that's a very good question. Life experience does play an essential role.
    But most of the times I think people are aware they are committing evil. And still they do it.
     
  5. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    God is very different than us so I think that His nature is much more complex (or maybe much simpler) than ours. So I guess according to God's nature, can and will are the same thing. He can't and won't.
     
  6. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    The problem is that to have this justification on why God allows evil, one has to believe there is a Satan, and that the world exists on these black-and-white principles (ie God exists. Satan exists. God is good. Satan is evil).

    So I'm not saying your idea is bad. I'm just saying that convincing an atheist there's a Satan is half the battle.
     
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  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    You sound like you are on the side of Christians who want to get into politics and force Christian values onto everyone.
    Where do you think it stops. Does God step in with a child being tortured and not with a child being bullied. Does God step in with a child being bullied and not with someone throwing a rock through a window? How seemingly innocuous would the evil have to be for you to think it is OK for God to ignore it?
    Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time.
    Was this a good time for God to step in or does God get condemned for stepping in then with the flood?
    Is it a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't, so God is doing things His way and looking for the long term good and not the short term.
    Then in the long term, making sure that real justice is given for everyone and restore what people have lost because of evil, so that the short term suffering is forgotten.
    That is not saying that it is good for us to stand back and do nothing when we see evil, but we are not God and cannot see and work towards a long term good by doing that.
     
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  8. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Reading incidents in the OT and calling them Yahweh acting out because someone upset Him just indicates our willingness to condemn even in the face of our ignorance, and indicates our willingness to not try to understand the bigger issues at stake in what God has done.
     
  9. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    I'd say it was a distinct argument.

    The child has a problem it can't be blamed for.

    Its individual survival is at stake.

    Any ordinarily moral onlooker would help.

    And the only free will involved is God's.

    As Epicurus is said to have said,

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
    Then [he] is not omnipotent.

    Is [he] able but not willing?
    Then [he] is malevolent.

    Is God both able and willing?
    Then where does evil come from?

    Is [he] neither able nor willing?
    Then why call [him] God?​
     
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  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It seems common sense that parts of the OT are allegorical and that the language of pictures is used to describe things but I'm glad I'm not a theologian who says that most of the OT is allegorical.
     
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  11. paradox

    paradox (㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)

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    I don't know why but biblical wars happened not because righteousness of the Jews but because of wickedness of those against who Jews fought. ex. Baal worshipers.
    Likewise there are also wrong doing kings mentioned in the bible who didn't follow God's path which serve as an example of what it wrong.

    Therefore biblically speaking Hitler's wars weren't fought to praise Nazis but to punish those against whom they fought while in same time Hitler serves as a good example of what is evil.
     
  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    Why did God engineer the human sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter (Judges 11:29-39)?
     
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  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    That would probably be to a large extent imo and God knows it also and can judge people accordingly when the time comes.
     
  14. paradox

    paradox (㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)

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    She obviously had a chance to escape and save her life, but instead come back to be sacrificed. it's was her choice.
     
  15. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    That was a bald assertion and then you expect me to agree with it and come up with reasons God did that.
    If the assertion of "engineer" is correct all I could do is come up with guesses as to possible reasons, and you would just dismiss them anyway because your are able to judge God.
    Assuming God engineered it, what possible reasons do you see?
     
  16. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    In this world, death exists.
    Suffering exists. Illness exists.
    We can try to prevent suffering, but we cannot avoid death.

    God is not of this world. He belongs to the other world, which has neither space nor time.

    So we cannot blame God for all that happens in this worldly dimension.
    Man has to understand his own limits.
    The limits of this worldly dimension.
    This life is not eternal.
     
  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Because in my understanding of what Yeshua reiterated, and many religions stated... Here is the top floor of Hell a.k.a Gehenna (Matthew 23:15).

    Yeshua was saying we're all evil in different ways, where only the highest dimensions of Heaven are pure (Luke 11:13).

    When we recognize what has been taught is that we've all got inner demons; where if we're self serving we fall lower than here, and when we learn to live our life in service to others, we eventually ascend.

    Life is like a training ground for practising to be angelic, and yet we've been indoctrinated to think it is all about acquiring our own contentment.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  18. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    IMO

    If 'God' of the Christian Bible would be a dictator if he/she/it prevented evil, are we being dictatorial by creating laws and enforcing them such that it acts as a disincentive for people to act freely? Why is law enforcement appropriate for us but not for 'God'?

    If 'Satan' kills all the good people, won't they just go to heaven? Isn't getting into heaven the goal? Why fight against that?
     
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  19. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    1) We create laws to punish transgressors because we are secular countries, and we do not think religious principles should guide our governors.

    2) I meant that Satan sees good people as an obstacle for his Empire of Evil on Earth.
    They are just obstacles.
    So eliminating them would favor his project.
     
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    First, no, it was not her choice ─ she did it out of obedience to her father Jephthah. She meanwhile lamented the life she was giving up.

    Second, it was the result of a contract which God made with Jephthah, not the other way around ─ God having performed [his] part of the bargain, Jephthah felt obliged to perform his, while bewailing that the human he'd offered to kill was alas his own daughter.

    Third, you sound like you're cool with human sacrifice. Really? Seriously?
     
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