1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why free will is real:

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by KelseyR, May 30, 2019.

Tags:
  1. EverChanging

    EverChanging Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,436
    Ratings:
    +212
    Religion:
    Cultural Catholic
    Lack of free will does not imply lack of intent or intelligence. What most deniers of free will would assert is that the intent and the intelligence are accountable in some way and trace back to causes that the agent has no control of.

    Behavior is either accountable or it is not.

    If it is accountable then it is not free -- there are causes and conditions underlying it.

    If it is not accountable then it would have no relationship to our desires or reason and would also not be free.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    8,010
    Ratings:
    +5,467
    Religion:
    It exists

    "Free will as its commonly believed to exist does not exist. "

    How is it commonly believed?

    To my understanding free will is simply the ability to voluntarily choose, think, and act as we want. We all have it. It is an evolved trait not a god given gift.
     
  3. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,655
    Religion:
    Christian
    Responding to the post and typing words are acts of volition, but is that volition the product of free will?
     
  4. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,655
    Religion:
    Christian
    You are very strange, but interesting. And here I was starting to think maybe you did not have a sense of humor.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    79,322
    Ratings:
    +33,398
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Science is showing we have a very limited ability to do that, if we have it at all. If our brain is doing it all before we have a conscious thought, we may have none at all. But regardless, even how we display and communicate an illness to others is something culture decides for us. People ddont will to have anxiety, and it is their culture that wills how it will manifest.
     
  6. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2017
    Messages:
    17,769
    Ratings:
    +12,655
    Religion:
    Christian
    I have some issues in trying to understand this argument. What is the power in reference? Is this referring to emergent properties? How does free will exist in the context of genetic determinants and environmental constraints? Can we have free will in a determined universe?
     
  7. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    8,010
    Ratings:
    +5,467
    Religion:
    It exists
    How did free will start to exist?

    If you think it's god given but yet you will be punished if you don't choose what god wants, that really isn't free is it? It's more of a form of trying to control.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    8,010
    Ratings:
    +5,467
    Religion:
    It exists
    The brain and conscious thought. Don't they go hand in hand.

    People don't will theirself to have ADHD either. That's a whole other story. It's odd that you use an illness as an example of not having free will.
     
  9. KelseyR

    KelseyR The eternal optimist!

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    159
    Ratings:
    +78
    Religion:
    Withheld
    I see a lot of effort here to track down free will. It will definitely exist in the brain as some sort of interactive neural pattern, although I cannot suggest a singular region where this might take place.
     
  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    79,322
    Ratings:
    +33,398
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    There is also subconscious thought. And, no, they don't, as a brain can function despite an organisms lack of consciousness. The conscious needs the brain, just as many other functions and parts do, but at the minimum the brain only needs a bit of nutrients and a flow of oxygenated blood - artificially the brain wouldn't even need the rest of the body, and realistically Soviet Russian scientists did artificially keep a dog head alive after severing it from the body.
     
  11. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    79,322
    Ratings:
    +33,398
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    I use it because I have Aspergers, and as far as cases of that go I'm very normal and rather unremarkable (there is even a fairly high comorbidity between that and gender dysphoria). The life I've lived, so many aspects and parts of it have already been lived. Even when I did believe in free will, my behaviors and interests it would turn out are pretty normal, to the point even my reading habits are the norm for females with Aspergers. Even the religious path I went down is nothing unique for a female Aspie (culturally aquired.Christianity, changing to Paganism, and eventually drifting to non-theism) Its hard to envision this being the product of a "free will" when so many people inadvertently and unintentionally end up acting a lot alike, especially when a mental disorder explains massive chunks of it. And then not quite a year ago I developed a mild case of bipolar 2:nos. None of that was willed, it was brought on by SSRI treatment, and for about a week a month there is no choice when it comes to sleep, feeling impulsive, itching to spend; and then its about a week of fighting off some very deeply depressive thoughts. Its not necessarily free will that has me up and moving on those days, but a full bladder or aching back from laying in bed too long. I use it because it helps demonstrates how free will is not a sound concept.
     
  12. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    8,010
    Ratings:
    +5,467
    Religion:
    It exists
    Isn't a brain without conscious thought in a vegetative state? It may not be dead but it's useless as far as awareness, conscious thought, etc. While in a vegetative state, a person cannot speak or do things that require thought or conscious intention and they have no awareness of themselves or their environment. That's my understanding of it anyway.
     
  13. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    8,010
    Ratings:
    +5,467
    Religion:
    It exists
    Free will is simply the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

    You don't think that exists?
     
  14. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    8,010
    Ratings:
    +5,467
    Religion:
    It exists
    Here's an interesting article.

    Human Consciousness: Where Is It From and What Is It for

    Consciousness is not a process in the brain but a kind of behavior that, of course, is controlled by the brain like any other behavior.

    Human Consciousness: Where Is It From and What Is It for
     
  15. Labourwave

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,699
    Ratings:
    +3,684
    Once again, I think you are using a different understanding of will than others.

    If one acts because one is manipulated (specifically: deceived or coerced into doing something,) their actions are still the product of their own choices, even if their actions were based on false information or coercion.

    The question of free will is whether or not we have the capacity to chose how we act within how we are situated and embodied.

    PMS will cause one certain symptoms, but it will not compel them to make any actions. It will place them in a position where they will desire to take such actions, but it causes the person to make no action. The affects of PMS will be experienced by the person, and they have the capacity to respond in whatever way they wish.

    Even when under heavy coercion, on an ontological level, we are still making a free choice on how we react to the circumstances.

    If someone points a gun at you and commands you to do something, you still have the rational faculty to make whatever decision you want, even if the choice is obey or die.

    To reiterate my response to Nowhereman, free will is not the ability to chose what you experience; it is the ability to choose how you act in response to how you are embodied and situated.

    As Sartre said, in some capacity we are condemned to be free.
     
  16. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    79,322
    Ratings:
    +33,398
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    If you do something because I lead you down a path, your choices are my choices, not yours. That's why we even have a concept for it and consider it destructive to all involved.
    As for PMS, yes, the symptoms can and do compel actions. Napping from fatigue, becoming irritable from hormone fluctuations, and pain in general tends to affect us, and cramps in the belly can be miserable. And then there is OCD, which strongly compels sufferers to perform certain actions.

    And, FYI, you don't know how you're going to react to a gun at your head until you've been there. I've not been there, but from what military personnel say and writeit's's not unusual for people to act in ways they didn't think possible. The brave becoming craven while the timid become heroes. None of them see it coming, and they all get caught up in the moment.

    And if you're being coerced, you're being coerced. If a cop tells you to strip because he's going to have sex with you, you can technically say no, but fear is very present, there is a tremendous power discrepancy, and refusing may not be viable.
     
  17. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    39,021
    Ratings:
    +35,088
    Religion:
    None
    Yet you freely penned your opinion.

    Of course there are limits and influences to free will, aging and subsequently death does not prevent you choosing either steak or chicken from the menu
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Labourwave

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,699
    Ratings:
    +3,684

    Your word choice defends the thesis you are arguing. PMS symptoms do not coerce actions: they cause someone to feel compelled to respond to them. However the choice to respond is nonetheless made.



    Your responses indicate that you do not understand my argument: i'm not sure if there is an issue with the way I am conveying these ideas or if you are misreading them.

    YES, coercion is coercion. Coercion however on the ontological level cannot force you to make a choice or perform an action.

    If a cop puts a gun at me and tells me to strip, two immediate outcomes seem most likely:
    1)I strip (the logical choice if one values self-preservation)
    or
    2)I get shot, injured, killed, etc.

    Nonetheless, as long as one has the ability to act, they have the ability to chose how they respond to the situation.
    We aren't "free" in the sense we would politically use the word, but on an ontological level, there is no escaping the fact that you MUST make decisions as long as you are physically alive and able to take actions.

    This is what I mean by free will. I do not mean manifesting whatever solution or outcome one wants, or that people are morally/politically responsible for choices they make when coerced, instead I mean that we always have the ability to chose what we do with our conscious physical and mental faculties as long as we are conscious.
     
    #38 Labourwave, Jun 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  19. Labourwave

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,699
    Ratings:
    +3,684
    If i do something because you sent me down a path, I did so using my own faculties and will. You may have situated me in an environment where you have violent/economic leverage over me, however nothing you do can make me do consciously do anything. You could kill me, and take away my ability to make a choice, but nonetheless, this does not force me to do anything on the ontological level.

    This is not to say that people are not responsible and in the wrong for attempting to coerce others into taking certain actions, just the correct assertion that when one "coerces" others they are merely situating people into a position where they do not have desirable options to chose from, in order to persuade them into taking the action desired by the coercer.
     
  20. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,052
    Ratings:
    +11,926
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Sorry, but proclamations of "truth"......Unicorns exist!......are not evidence of that "truth."

    .
     
Loading...