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Why free will is real:

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by KelseyR, May 30, 2019.

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  1. KelseyR

    KelseyR The eternal optimist!

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    The best argument for freedom of will is that we, as part of our surroundings have claim to a portion of its sum power. This idea is reinforced by empirically noting the human brain and a need to ascribe some valid function to the intelligence it permits. Free will perfectly fits the bill. Our awareness is not limited to helplessly watching!

    Refutation is worthless- for it will necessarily begin with two admissions:
    (1) That there was no intent to do so
    (2) That it was devoid of intelligence

     
    #1 KelseyR, May 30, 2019
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  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Things like mental illness, hormones, upbringing, environment, and social influences clearly demonstrate free will does not exist. And our intelligence doesn't suggest free will.
     
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  3. Workman

    Workman UNIQUE

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    If you have an idea..your free-will is ‘THAN’ taken by it.
     
    #3 Workman, May 30, 2019
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  4. wellwisher

    wellwisher Well-Known Member

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    Free will is consistent with neuron function. The brain expends the lion's share of its metabolic energy, pumping and exchanging sodium and potassium ions across the neuron membrane. The end result is, these ions are separated and segregated on opposite sides of the neuron membrane.

    This energy intensive segregation of ions, causes a lowering of entropy at the level of these ions. In other words, left to their own devices, these segregated ions would prefer to blend and randomize. The constant ion pumping and resistance of the membrane, provides a way to lower their entropy and thereby create a lingering entropy potential at the membrane. The second law, attempts to increase this entropy, leading to neuron firing and some randomization, that is the foundation for will. Neuron firing leads to new branches and synapses.

    This is not the whole story. A key component of the brain is water. Sodium and Potassium ions impact water in different ways. Sodium ions are Kosmotropic meaning they create more order in water, than water creates for itself. Potassium ions are Chaotropic, which means these ions create more chaos or disorder in water than water creates for itself. The segregation of these two ions, not only creates ion entropy potential, but it also creates an entropy potential within the water, with water entropy highest where the potassium ions accumulate. The water, which is continuous on both sides of the membrane sees an entropy gradient.

    Since all these ion dynamics occur within water, and the fastest ion within water, is the hydrogen proton of water; pH affect,, the water responses to the dual entropy potential much faster than the movement of the sodium and potassium ions. Water is already making needed changes in potential before these ions slowly move, by comparison.

    This semi-independent and semi-dependent motion of water and ions adds additional randomization to the increasing entropy, especially when averaged over the various local and global water potentials, created by neuron firing sequences and neurotransmitters, dissolved in water, which tweak the water potential further.

    Humans have two centers of consciousness in the brain; inner self and ego. These two centers can establish an additional gradient, in the water of the brain, from which the bulk affects called human will and choice appears.
     
    #4 wellwisher, May 30, 2019
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  5. Labourwave

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    I disagree.
    Free will cannot obviously be the sole determining factor in human behavior (like Sartre considers) but the existence of mental illness and hormones do not render free will an impossibility. Upbringing and environment and social influences influence how someone develops but does not have any impact on whether or not free will exists.
     
  6. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Mental illness means you have a certain range of symptoms regardless. Tell a woman who is PMSing that hormones do not render free will impossible. And upbringing and environment effect us from cradle to grave in ways we do not choose, not do we choose how the experiences mold us. No one freely chooses to be a serial killer: genetic outcome and a highly abusive childhood seem to be what makes it possible.
     
  7. KelseyR

    KelseyR The eternal optimist!

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    So you didn't really decide to reply to this post? Your fingers just somehow moved across the keypad and words appeared without any intelligence behind them? Are you unable to see how ridiculous that sounds?
     
    #7 KelseyR, May 30, 2019
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  8. Labourwave

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    Of course, symptoms aren't determined by will. When i got the flu last December I spent a long time involuntarily vomiting and coughing because of physical processes going on in my body, but that does not mean all of my bodily processes are pre-determined without my will affecting them.

    I've had fairly serious depression for around half a decade now and that seriously affects my emotional state and I also suffer from certain cognitive distortions which occur alongside depression. The fact that my brain does not properly produce neurotransmitters and I spend a long time irrationally sad does not mean I do not have the faculty for free choice. Mind doesn't come before matter, human thought and decisions arise from materially existing processes.

    As someone who spent a sizable amount of my highschool taking estrogen and have experienced similar PMS symptoms to the ones you have, I will openly tell you that this statement is not uniformly correct. I also know many cis-women who believe in free will; so there's that.

    PMS symptoms do not interfere with a woman's ability to make a free choice. They alter the material and mental framing she makes the choice within, but PMS symptoms, like depression or one's upbringing, do not render free will impossible.



    Our prior learning influences how we perceive the world and informs our decisions. Our upbringings may also leave things like Trauma and other involuntary scars on the mind, In that sense, we are moulded by our upbringings.


    However, do any of these things actually interfere with our ability to make a choice within the options presented to us? No.

    When I'm medicated for my ADHD for example, my attention and ability to focus on one thing are higher than when I am not medicated. This allows me to be more productive in many activities.

    On the other hand, when I am not on them I get easily distracted and have a hard time focusing.

    Does this chemical influence caused by neurotransmitters actually affect my ability to choose what to do within each framework? I do not see any clear reason why that would be the case.
     
    #8 Labourwave, May 30, 2019
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  9. Labourwave

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    That's not very useful; I think there's just a lot written between the lines of shadow's post and there is probably some differences between what I understand free will to be and Shadow understands it to be. It is not fair or useful to assume that no reason went into Shadow's thoughts.
     
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  10. Labourwave

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    I think this is a strong case for Free Will by Michio Kaku.
     
    #10 Labourwave, May 30, 2019
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  11. KelseyR

    KelseyR The eternal optimist!

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    I agree with you, Kelsey!
     
  12. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    While I admire Kaku as a theoretical physicist, he's way out of his field here. What he says is simply wrong-headed, to be polite, and is no case for free will.

    Determinism does not stand or fall on what we know. Nor does free will stand on our inability to know: Kaku's working premise.

    He says: "There's uncertainty. We don't know where the next electron is." Just because we can't be certain of where an electron may be does not in any way mean that its particular position was uncaused. Our inability to know something has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of that something. This is a red herring, although I'm sure Kaku didn't mean it to be.

    He also says, "It means that in some sense we do have some kind of free will. No one can determine your future event given your past history. There's always the wild card There' always the possibility of uncertainty of what we do." And again, our inability to figure out X does not mean X doesn't exist.

    .
     
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  13. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Nor does it imply that X does exist. It would remain unknown.

    But you are saying there is cause to reason to believe that there is no free will.

    I have had things challenge my will, but my restraint was stronger than my desire. You might be saying that everybody has a popping point where there is no restraint.
    But my resolve runs deep. And you are only as good as your strongest motive.
     
  14. Labourwave

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    That is correct. To rephrase I would say that I find that a strong case because I believe the logical null-assumption is that some-level of free will does indeed exist.
     
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  15. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    Free will when your penned in any environment or situation?

    It's just a made-up religious term.

    And no there is no such thing as free will.

    I mean we're all going to die someday right? Where's the free will when it comes to death?
     
  16. Labourwave

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    The question of Free Will is whether or not we chose how we respond to the material worlds and the situations we are embodied into.

    It does not mean getting any ending or result you want.
     
  17. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    which means someone who is manic is not willing their thought process. It means autistic people do not will themselves to be introverted. Schizophrenics do not will their delusions.

    So? The behavioral and cognitive effects of pms are brought on by hormones, not will.
    Altering the mental framing does mean things are going in that arent willed.
    Which is brought from meds, not will power, which has been discarded as an approach for treating everything that used to be approached with it.
     
  18. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Subconscious brain activity also corrodes the idea of free will, and it does seem our brain chooses before we have a conscious thought.
     
  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Are you able to see how ridiculous your own post looks? Without any intelligence? A message was communicated, you understood, intelligence was involved. Free will as its commonly believed to exist does not exist. Psychology, sociology, anthropology, and more recently neuropsychology and neurosciences in general, are making it very clear that if we do actually get to make a decision, by the time we get to make it there isn't much room left for our own thoughts. It seems that once we realize how severely we fool ourselves into believing free will, the more easily we can identify external factors that influence us. But do we choose, or do we only have the illusion of choice? I can't say with 100% certainty.
     
  20. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Manipulation is another good example. The manipulated thinks they are following their own will, but in reality they follow the will of the manipulator. We live lives that are constantly bombarding us with attempts to manipulate us.
     
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