Why fear God?

[sojourner]

I have to disagree with the statement that we don't have to do anything to be saved since Jesus paid the sin debt...We ARE saved by Grace but we must humble ourselves before the Lord and ask for this grace to be applied to OUR sins...we must take this step otherwise we are just letting Jesus die for nothing...Jesus said' Behold,I stand at the door, and knock,if any man who hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and will supwith him, and he with Me".(Revelation 3:20) this means we MUST for this saving grace to be applied to our sins in the act of asking for the salvation and in repentance and in being consecrated by that salvation...those who claim to be Christians and are awful people probably are acting AS they think Christian means and have yet to do what is required for the saving grace of salvation to be applied to their own lives. There are many instances in the Bible where it says HE THAT HATH AN EAR LET HIM HEAR...some do not hear what God is telling them that they MUST do.

Now to respond to the OP...fear of God comes out of 'an awe' for God and His mightiness with what He can do...some should fear God because they leave their lives up to chance by not getting on their knees asking for God to come into their lives and forgiving them their sins and asking that the Grace done on the cross by Jesus be applied to them. You can NOT just say Jesus died for me therefore I am saved..it just is not so...you must answer teh knock at the door of your heart by Jesus' saving grace...those who do you will see it in their lives in how they interact with others and their charity to their fellow man/woman. They are not gossipers,known for not being liars, they do not step on someone to get to the top...things of this world are just not as important as they are to those who live in the flesh.

I won't continue to run on but that is MY opinion on the subject.

I disagree with that. It's works-oriented salvation and goes directly against the grain of the gospel message, which is that, although we can do nothing to save ourselves, yet God has already saved us by grace alone.

 

[Squirt]

I disagree with that. It's works-oriented salvation and goes directly against the grain of the gospel message, which is that, although we can do nothing to save ourselves, yet God has already saved us by grace alone.

In my opinion, if you believe that obedience to God's commandments goes against the grain of the gospel message, I think you missed the point entirely. Your New Testament is obviously missing more than a few pages. Or did you just black out the verses that don't fit your interpretation?

 

[sojourner]

I really have a problem with this statment, I Know many, many born again Christians some being my father, step sister, and her husband. These people are no better than anyone else. they lie, they gossip and everything else. what makes them diffrent than anyone else that does these things? They go to church on sunday and say they are sorry. thats it. And yes, they speak in toungs and were baptised in a full tank of water, not just some drips. it's a Pentacostal church (sorry if I spelled that wrong).

these are basicly my questions as well. good post.

Yes, but you need to realize two things at work here: First of all, many Christians believe in a magical, formulaic, salvation-event. Saying all the right words at the right time, and having water applied in the right way is what brings salvation, regardless of what "worldly" things they continue to do. This is "works-oriented" salvation.

Second, being Christian -- being "saved" -- does not make a person automatically "better" than anyone else. Christians are all just as flawed as they ever were. BUT...those of us who accept salvation by grace alone, tend to see the whole of salvation as more of a process than an event. Yes -- the salvation-event took place when Christ sacrificed himself for our sin. But there is a process to our realization of that, and there is a process to our internalization of that. And there is a process to our learning how to live that out in the world. The change comes gradually, steeped in earthly time and place. That process will take our whole life.

many Christians like to make salvation a "members-only" club sort of affair. Only those who believe a certain thing, or did a certain act, or said certain words -- or even act a certain way in life -- are really "saved." I think that flies in the face of the love, openness and inclusiveness we find in Jesus.

There's a story in Mark 2 about a paralytic who could not get to Jesus for healing, due to the crowd of followers surrounding Jesus. The man's friends had to climb up on the roof, chop a hole in it, and lower the man down to Jesus. Many times, I think Jesus' followers have Jesus completely surrounded, and want to keep Jesus to themselves. I just don't think that's right.

 

[Squirt]

Absolutely not! I believe in neither of those choices (although choice 1 is closest). Have you not read any of my posts?

Actually, I have read your posts. I wouldn't have commented otherwise. I apologize if I misunderstood. If option #1 is the closest to your personal belief, would you mind explaining in what way it differs from your belief? Here it is again:

"We have to do absolutely nothing. We exist (though no choice of our own) and we will be saved by virtue of the fact that Jesus Christ atoned for our sins."

And, if you wouldn't mind, please give me some passages from the scriptures that back up your argument. I'll save you the trouble of quoting Ephesians 2:8-9. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." These verses clearly state that faith is a requirement for salvation and I am looking for evidence that NOTHING WHATSOEVER is required of us.

 

[Squirt]

Yes, but you need to realize two things at work here: First of all, many Christians believe in a magical, formulaic, salvation-event. Saying all the right words at the right time, and having water applied in the right way is what brings salvation, regardless of what "worldly" things they continue to do. This is "works-oriented" salvation.

Second, being Christian -- being "saved" -- does not make a person automatically "better" than anyone else. Christians are all just as flawed as they ever were. BUT...those of us who accept salvation by grace alone, tend to see the whole of salvation as more of a process than an event. Yes -- the salvation-event took place when Christ sacrificed himself for our sin. But there is a process to our realization of that, and there is a process to our internalization of that. And there is a process to our learning how to live that out in the world. The change comes gradually, steeped in earthly time and place. That process will take our whole life.

many Christians like to make salvation a "members-only" club sort of affair. Only those who believe a certain thing, or did a certain act, or said certain words -- or even act a certain way in life -- are really "saved." I think that flies in the face of the love, openness and inclusiveness we find in Jesus.

There's a story in Mark 2 about a paralytic who could not get to Jesus for healing, due to the crowd of followers surrounding Jesus. The man's friends had to climb up on the roof, chop a hole in it, and lower the man down to Jesus. Many times, I think Jesus' followers have Jesus completely surrounded, and want to keep Jesus to themselves. I just don't think that's right.

Strangely, in spite of everything else you have said, I agree with pretty much everything you have said in this particular post. As a matter of fact, I'm giving your frubals for it. (As soon as I've spread them around a bit, I guess. )

 

[lovedmb]

I disagree with that. It's works-oriented salvation and goes directly against the grain of the gospel message, which is that, although we can do nothing to save ourselves, yet God has already saved us by grace alone.

And that includes belief? Belief is *something*. Do you have to believe in Jesus in order to be saved?

 

[WeAreAllOne]

Yes, but you need to realize two things at work here: First of all, many Christians believe in a magical, formulaic, salvation-event. Saying all the right words at the right time, and having water applied in the right way is what brings salvation, regardless of what "worldly" things they continue to do. This is "works-oriented" salvation.

Second, being Christian -- being "saved" -- does not make a person automatically "better" than anyone else. Christians are all just as flawed as they ever were. BUT...those of us who accept salvation by grace alone, tend to see the whole of salvation as more of a process than an event. Yes -- the salvation-event took place when Christ sacrificed himself for our sin. But there is a process to our realization of that, and there is a process to our internalization of that. And there is a process to our learning how to live that out in the world. The change comes gradually, steeped in earthly time and place. That process will take our whole life.

many Christians like to make salvation a "members-only" club sort of affair. Only those who believe a certain thing, or did a certain act, or said certain words -- or even act a certain way in life -- are really "saved." I think that flies in the face of the love, openness and inclusiveness we find in Jesus.

There's a story in Mark 2 about a paralytic who could not get to Jesus for healing, due to the crowd of followers surrounding Jesus. The man's friends had to climb up on the roof, chop a hole in it, and lower the man down to Jesus. Many times, I think Jesus' followers have Jesus completely surrounded, and want to keep Jesus to themselves. I just don't think that's right.

thank you for this post but I wasent the one saying they were somehow better from the heart said that, or implyed it and thats what I had the problem with. Although I understand what you are saying, and in theory this is correct. It seems to me that many Chrisians are so rapped up in how much better they are that they forget how human they look to the rest of us.

 

[lovedmb]

Actually, I have read your posts. I wouldn't have commented otherwise. I apologize if I misunderstood. If option #1 is the closest to your personal belief, would you mind explaining in what way it differs from your belief? Here it is again:

"We have to do absolutely nothing. We exist (though no choice of our own) and we will be saved by virtue of the fact that Jesus Christ atoned for our sins."

And, if you wouldn't mind, please give me some passages from the scriptures that back up your argument. I'll save you the trouble of quoting Ephesians 2:8-9. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." These verses clearly state that faith is a requirement for salvation and I am looking for evidence that NOTHING WHATSOEVER is required of us.

I give you frubals, for saying what I was thinking (and typed, though in less words). I guess I should read down a bit lest I repeat someone.

 

[fromthe heart]

I disagree with that. It's works-oriented salvation and goes directly against the grain of the gospel message, which is that, although we can do nothing to save ourselves, yet God has already saved us by grace alone.

So are you trying to say that we do not have to do a thing? I have a question for you then...If I went to the store and bought you a gift to be just yours how would it become your unless you were to reach out and take it from the one offering it. You still MUST receive the gift for it to BE a gift. You receive it by repenting and receiving the gift through humbling yourself before God acknowledging your sins and your willingness to put them away and following HIS way in your life....John 3:5-8

You don't think that if when the Bible says we are born sinners that we just majically are saved even though we live a sinful life? We have to accept the change into our life given to us free and clear from God through Jesus Christ our Lord. You must Choose to accept or reject/heaven or hell/saved or lost. You must accept the gift or not...We must be born of the Spirit for which we must take a stand in accepting the salvation so generously given. You have to be sanctified as well by that same Grace...see Heb.10:14

WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved-Acts 2:21
John 6:37 Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
The list of scripture goes on if you'd like for me to set it before you for your opinion.

This is not my opinion but rather bsaed on scripture of the Word of God whose words I personally believe.

 

[sojourner]

In my opinion, if you believe that obedience to God's commandments goes against the grain of the gospel message, I think you missed the point entirely. Your New Testament is obviously missing more than a few pages. Or did you just black out the verses that don't fit your interpretation?

I didn't say that "obedience to God's commandments goes against the grain of the gospel message." At all.

What I disagreed with was the poster's remarks that, in order for grace to be applied to our sin, we had to ask for it. Asking constitutes a work: We have to "do" something in order to "win" salvation." Hence, works-oriented salvation. Only those who ask are "good enough" to receive grace. I think that's wrong. it had nothing to do with observing what God commanded of us.

Jesus said for us to 1) Love God, and 2) Love our neighbor. "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets." To me, love doesn't so much constitute a set of actions, but a way of being. We are to abide in love -- "walk in love as Christ has loved us," says Paul. And we do that in response to the love that God has shown for us -- we don't do that "in order to be saved."

 

[Squirt]

Jesus said for us to 1) Love God, and 2) Love our neighbor. "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets." To me, love doesn't so much constitute a set of actions, but a way of being. We are to abide in love -- "walk in love as Christ has loved us," says Paul. And we do that in response to the love that God has shown for us -- we don't do that "in order to be saved."

Gotcha. But suppose we don't abide in his love? What then? In other words, what if we choose not to respond?

 

[sojourner]

And that includes belief? Belief is *something*. Do you have to believe in Jesus in order to be saved?

No. I don't think you do! I think that God's love completely eclipses all the selfishness and ignorance we can generate.

 

[sojourner]

So are you trying to say that we do not have to do a thing? I have a question for you then...If I went to the store and bought you a gift to be just yours how would it become your unless you were to reach out and take it from the one offering it. You still MUST receive the gift for it to BE a gift. You receive it by repenting and receiving the gift through humbling yourself before God acknowledging your sins and your willingness to put them away and following HIS way in your life....John 3:5-8

You don't think that if when the Bible says we are born sinners that we just majically are saved even though we live a sinful life? We have to accept the change into our life given to us free and clear from God through Jesus Christ our Lord. You must Choose to accept or reject/heaven or hell/saved or lost. You must accept the gift or not...We must be born of the Spirit for which we must take a stand in accepting the salvation so generously given. You have to be sanctified as well by that same Grace...see Heb.10:14

WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved-Acts 2:21
John 6:37 Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
The list of scripture goes on if you'd like for me to set it before you for your opinion.

This is not my opinion but rather bsaed on scripture of the Word of God whose words I personally believe.

I think you're putting a time limit on grace that I just don't believe is there. Of course we can reject the gift. That's our choice. But I also think that God desires for each of us to be with God, and I think God gets what God wants. I think that those who do not accept the gift in their life will, when they die and stand face-to-face with God, and be confronted with an amount of perfect love that they will no longer want to reject.

 

[Squirt]

I think you're putting a time limit on grace that I just don't believe is there. Of course we can reject the gift. That's our choice. But I also think that God desires for each of us to be with God, and I think God gets what God wants. I think that those who do not accept the gift in their life will, when they die and stand face-to-face with God, and be confronted with an amount of perfect love that they will no longer want to reject.

I hope I'm not drifting too far off topic here. (It looks like we've already kind of done that.) But when Jesus said that He would "reward every man according to his works," how do you see that as figuring in? If our works do not have anything at all to do with whether or not we are saved, do they have anything at all to do with how we will be rewarded? If they do, what would that be?

 

[fromthe heart]

I think you're putting a time limit on grace that I just don't believe is there. Of course we can reject the gift. That's our choice. But I also think that God desires for each of us to be with God, and I think God gets what God wants. I think that those who do not accept the gift in their life will, when they die and stand face-to-face with God, and be confronted with an amount of perfect love that they will no longer want to reject.

At this point is you have not allowed Jesus into your heart in salvation then one will hear "Depart from me I never knew you" and that will be that.

You may have misunderstood what I was saying when I said you have to 'ask'...perhaps what I should have said is you have to open your heart up to Jesus great gift of salvation to reap the benefits of it. You ARE right in that we can do nothing on our own and I never intended to imply we have any gravity in it just that we do have to accept this gift or reject it...at some point in our lives or we will suffer the eternal lake of fire when told depart from me I never knew you. We certianly will not get to live like an evil person and then when we stand in judgment have the choice to still reject...it's not how the scriptures state it.

 

[sojourner]

Gotcha. But suppose we don't abide in his love? What then? In other words, what if we choose not to respond?

I used to think that we had to "accept the gift." But, I just can't reconcile that to the unconditional love that I believe is God. I just think God isn't as closed off as the ancient Hebrews believed God was. I don't think God's kingdom has "pearly gates." I think God's kingdom is open and available to all who would come -- regardless of sin, regardless of belief.

I think that, when we experience the love of God, we do respond to it, by showing it to others, in whatever way we show it.

I think that there are those who are unable to experience it -- notoriously evil people, who are so coverd up by their own crap that they cannot, or will not experience it. I think that God, in the fullness of time, will break through the veil and show them God's love in all its glory. When confronted with this perfect love, perfectly shown, I don't believe they will be able any longer to reject it.

 

[sojourner]

I hope I'm not drifting too far off topic here. (It looks like we've already kind of done that.) But when Jesus said that He would "reward every man according to his works," how do you see that as figuring in? If our works do not have anything at all to do with whether or not we are saved, do they have anything at all to do with how we will be rewarded? If they do, what would that be?

You're perceiving salvation as the reward for our works of love. But, is not love its own reward?

 

[sojourner]

At this point is you have not allowed Jesus into your heart in salvation then one will hear "Depart from me I never knew you" and that will be that.

You may have misunderstood what I was saying when I said you have to 'ask'...perhaps what I should have said is you have to open your heart up to Jesus great gift of salvation to reap the benefits of it. You ARE right in that we can do nothing on our own and I never intended to imply we have any gravity in it just that we do have to accept this gift or reject it...at some point in our lives or we will suffer the eternal lake of fire when told depart from me I never knew you. We certianly will not get to live like an evil person and then when we stand in judgment have the choice to still reject...it's not how the scriptures state it.

How can anyone who has experienced love, and returns that love to others not know Jesus? Jesus is the embodiment of love, by whatever name you call it.

I do not believe in the "lake of fire" as a literal thing. I look at it this way: When we "test" steel, we place it in a big fire and beat the crap out of it with a big hammer. That strengthens the steel and makes it pliable so it won't shatter. Maybe those souls who have been implacable will be "tested" similarly by God, in order that they become pliable enough to accept the love God has shown them.

 

[Squirt]

I used to think that we had to "accept the gift." But, I just can't reconcile that to the unconditional love that I believe is God. I just think God isn't as closed off as the ancient Hebrews believed God was. I don't think God's kingdom has "pearly gates." I think God's kingdom is open and available to all who would come -- regardless of sin, regardless of belief.

I think that, when we experience the love of God, we do respond to it, by showing it to others, in whatever way we show it.

I think that there are those who are unable to experience it -- notoriously evil people, who are so coverd up by their own crap that they cannot, or will not experience it. I think that God, in the fullness of time, will break through the veil and show them God's love in all its glory. When confronted with this perfect love, perfectly shown, I don't believe they will be able any longer to reject it.

I some ways, I disagree with you SO strongly, :knockout2 and in other ways, I agree with you SO strongly. :highfive: Man, I just can't quite figure out what I think of you! (i.e. I can't figure out what I think of your beliefs.)

 

[Squirt]

You're perceiving salvation as the reward for our works of love. But, is not love its own reward?

No, no, no. Don't tell me what I'm perceiving. Tell me what you're perceiving. I already know what I'm perceiving.

What did Jesus mean when He said He would reward every man according to His works. Don't dance around the question. Just a straightforward answer will do very nicely.