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Featured Why Evolution and Christianity are Fundamentally Irreconcilable

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Hubert Farnsworth, May 29, 2018.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Semantically correct!
     
  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    What is very telling is that I asked several times for support for Menton's claims using a valid source. All that he could come back With was that he won teacher of the year. I could buy a World's Best Dad tee shirt. Would that make me an authority here?
     
  3. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Sigh.
     
  4. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    He may have been a fine teacher 20 yrs ago as per
    awards. Maybe he went off the rails since; who knows.

    He clearly is as I noted, a showman. A good teacher needs to
    be that. So, if he was awarded, fine.

    Our friend puts great importance on it as well he might
    as it is all the guy has going now. There is a lot of
    very negative commentary on the current state of his
    integrity.

    If he had researched and respectable data to present,
    he could present it where it counts, in a professional
    journal, not as an AIG- produced youtube vid.

    But never mind, you cannot reason with the unreasonable.
     
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  5. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Actually... the newest thinking is that Lucy isn't even a female ...
    Lucy is a really poor choice of a transitional form

    But really, you aren't dismissing an accomplished medical professor of a distinguished medical school

    Interesting article suggesting Lucy died falling from a tree
    Family tree fall: human ancestor Lucy died in arboreal accident, say scientists
     
    #225 whirlingmerc, Jun 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    She probably didn't. Your article does not strongly support that claim. And even if she did, so what?
     
  7. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    You're relying on ad hominem, but you might enjoy the book "Lucy Dethroned"
    Lucy Dethroned

    Lucy probably a He

    "
    Hausler and Schmid noted that Lucy’s pelvis was ridgeless and heart-shaped, which means that “she” was more likely a “he.” They wrote:

    Contrary to Sts 14 [designation for a specific A. africanus fossil—BH/BT], delivery [of a baby—BH/BT] in AL 288-1 would have been more complicated than in modern humans, if not impossible, due to the protruding promontorium.... Consequently, there is more evidence to suggest that AL 288-1 was male rather than female. A female of the same species as AL 288-1 would have had a pelvis with a larger sagittal diameter and a less protruding sacral promontorium.... Overall, the broader pelvis and the more laterally oriented iliac blades of AL 288-1 would produce more favourable insertion sites for the climbing muscles in more heavily built males.... It would perhaps be better to change the trivial name to “Lucifer” according to the old roman god who brings light after the dark night, because with such a pelvis “Lucy” would apparently have been the last of her species (29:380, emp. added)."

    Lucy probably a chimp

    "...That admission begs the question as to why this fossil was not categorized from the outset as simply a chimpanzee. But this gender declaration poses additional problems for Lucy. As Hausler and Schmid went on to note: “If AL 288-1 was female, then one can exclude this species from the ancestors of Homo because its pelvis is certainly less primitive than the pelvis of Sts 14 [the designation for a specific A. africanus fossil—BH/BT]” (1995, p. 378). Both of the pelvises mentioned display some degree of damage, and both are missing critical parts, but it should be noted that in regard to the Lucy fossil, more than one attempt was made at reconstruction...."

    Not an upright walker at all

    "...The March 29, 2000 San Diego Union Tribune reported:
    A chance discovery made by looking at a cast of the bones of “Lucy,” the most famous fossil of Australopithecus afarensis, shows her wrist is stiff, like a chimpanzee’s, Brian Richmond and David Strait of George Washington University in Washington, D.C., reported. This suggests that her ancestors walked on their knuckles (Fox, 2000)...."

    Bottom line... a tree dweller

    "
    In their concluding remarks, Stern and Susman remarked:

    It will not have escaped the reader’s attention that the great bulk of evidence supports the view that the Hadar hominid was to a significant degree arboreal.... We discovered a substantial body of evidence indicating that arboreal activities were so important to A. afarensis that morphologic adaptations permitting adept movement in the trees were maintained (60:313).
    In the September 9, 1994 issue of Science, Randall Susman reported that the chimp-like thumbs in A. afarensis were far better suited for tree climbing than tool making"
     
    #227 whirlingmerc, Jun 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    No, calling your source a liar without evidence might be an ad hominem. The problem is that he was shown to be a liar.

    Meanwhile I challenged you to find any support at all for his claims. Your inability to do so means that tacitly you agree that he is a liar as well.
     
  9. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    definitely an ad hominem

    "
    AUSTRALOPITHECINE TEETH:
    MORE EVIDENCE THAT LUCY WAS ARBOREAL

    One of Donald Johanson’s specialties is identifying differences within the teeth of alleged hominids. In fact, in his original description, he gave a great deal of attention to the dentition of A. afarensis. By measuring the various differences in molars and canines, he systematically assigned various fossils to predetermined groups. However, even his highly trained eyes may have missed some important microscopic data. Anthropologist Alan Walker has been working on ways of possibly determining behavior based on evidence from the fossil record. One of his methods includes quantitative analysis of tooth microwear. Using image enhancement and optical diffraction methods of scanning, Walker believes he might be able to reconstruct ancient diets from paleontological samples. In speaking of Walker’s material, Johanson noted:

    Dr. Alan Walker of Johns Hopkins has recently concluded that the polishing effect he finds on the teeth of robust australopithecines and modern chimpanzees indicates that australopithecines, like chimps, were fruit eaters.... If they were primarily fruit eaters, as Walker’s examination of their teeth suggests they were, then our picture of them, and of the evolutionary path they took, is wrong (Johanson and Edey, 1981, p. 358).
    So we now have impressive evidence that Lucy and her kin ate fruit from trees, rather than foraging for food on the ground.


    "
     
  10. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Sure looks like a chimp

    "
    LUCY’S RIB CAGE
    Due to the impossibility of reconstructing Lucy’s skull from the few fragments available, the determination that Lucy walked uprightly like a human had to be derived from her hips and ribs. Peter Schmid, a paleontologist at the Anthropological Institute in Zurich, Switzerland, studied Lucy extensively, and summarized his efforts as follows.

    When I started to put the skeleton together, I expected it to look human. Everyone had talked about Lucy as being very modern, very human, so I was surprised by what I saw. I noticed that the ribs were more round in cross-section, more like what you see in apes. Human ribs are flatter in cross-section. But the shape of the rib cage itself was the biggest surprise of all. The human rib cage is barrel shaped, and I just couldn’t get Lucy’s ribs to fit this kind of shape. But I could get them to make a conical-shaped rib cage, like what you see in apes (as quoted in Leakey and Lewin, 1992, pp. 193-194).
    Ribs can be “tweaked” and rotated so that they appear more “barrel-like” or conical, but the best (and correct) arrangement is the original morphology. The facets from the ribs that line up on the vertebrae provide a tighter fit when aligned correctly. In Lucy’s case, her ribs are conical, like those found in apes."
     
  11. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Ironic quote from Donald Johansen

    "
    , in the March 1996 issue of National Geographic, Donald Johanson himself admitted: “Lucy has recently been dethroned” (189[3]:117, emp. added). His (and Lucy’s) “fifteen minutes of fame” are over. As Lee Berger declared: “One might say we are kicking Lucy out of the family tree” (as quoted in Shreeve, 1996). Fascinating, how often the hominid family tree is pruned!
    "
     
  12. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Clearly many experts have kicked Lucy out of the tree... but dogma dies hard even in the 'scientific community' ?
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Not an ad hom, and more lies do not support your claim.

    Please read carefully, real science is done through the process of peer review. If a person avoids peer review and can do real science, if he has published before, it is almost certain that he does so because he knows his claims would be refuted. It is a form of lying through omission.

    Where are the articles from well respected peer reviewed professional journals that support your claims?
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Sorry claims without links are less than worthless, and National Geographic is not a reliable source for this sort of work. You need to be able to refer and link to peer reviewed sciences that supports your claims.
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You seem to keep forgetting that you are an ape. Pointing out that Lucy is an ape does not help your cause. And sources that do not go through peer review cannot refute ideas that went through peer review.

    Once again, please do your homework. Find peer reviewed sources, not glamour press, not false creation "peer review" but articles that are from well respected professional sources.
     
  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    That is old news, but surprising that a "chimp" would die
    falling from a tree. Almost like she's not very good at it.
    I'd have thought you 'd keep quiet on that one. Must
    not have thought it through. Quelle surprise.

    But never mind. Your lying doctor is all you need.

    Pretending it is an "ad hom"* to point to his lack
    of credibility fits right in with your needs.

    Tho maybe if you were in court accused by a notorious
    liar testifying outside his field of expertise, you 'd be
    ok with it; why not especially if he were a -gasp- ex professor!

    You'd not want to ad hom the poor darlin' by mentioning
    his perjury convictions, now, would you?

    I will leave you to it.

    * Something else you've only the most facile grasp of,
    is the concept of "ad hom". But keep it up, it adds nicely
    to the miasma surrounding the credibility of your posts.
     
    #236 Audie, Jun 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  17. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Hey, ya got something against glam??
     
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  18. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The person who discovered Lucy... the male chimp... gave up and said Lucy was Dethroned
    case closed
     
  19. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Really? Too bad that you cannot support that claim.

    You can't refute that which you refuse to understand.
     
  20. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    When would the first evolved human have existed? Why should his name not have been Adam?

    ...Obviously at some point there must have been a first human. Or at least more human than not.
     
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