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Featured Why don't you understand the Trinity?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by calm, Jul 12, 2019.

  1. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Yet you cannot prove that you have the Holy Spirit so your statement is entirely subjective. I can equally say this:

    "Those who look at the Bible in its entire context and have the Holy Spirit in them will also know that the Trinity is not true."

    I also suspect that you might not actually believe in the concept of the Trinity. So I have started a thread asking anyone who is willing to let me know if the Trinity has an official understanding which people have to believe.

    Besides, a person who does not understand the Trinity will obviously have objections to it which causes them not to understand. My objections will help you to help me understand.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Even though my old Pentecostal oneness church is a cult I disagree with and renounced, they did have a few nuggets of truth .One of them was that the Trinity concept was created by Constantine to please Pagans and actually I still believe that.
     
  3. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Reading history, it seems that Constantine used a council to refine it and make it official. It was the church fathers who spoke about it. The first mention of the word Trinity is by Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century. Constantine was involved in the Council of Nicaea which was held in AD 325.
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe in the Nicene creed except for a few small matters but I would say what I stated reflects that creed.

    I believe the Modalists are Trinitarian. They say the same thing but with a different and incorrect way of viewing it. The simile breaks down when one examines it. The same can be said of the ice, water, steam simile.

    I believe God is one. God in a different place may be taking up a different space by our perception but it is still the same one God. It is isn't three in one but is one in three. The hymn Holy, Holy Holy goes "God in three persons, blessed Trinity."

    I believe that simile doesn't work. Spirit is not water. God is everywhere but one can't scoop off a piece of God. He is always one everywhere.

    I believe the Spirit of God in Jesus is eternal but Jesus is not. However the concept of Jesus would have been there at the beginning and even though he ceased to exist when the Spirit of God left and the body died, the concept of Jesus was still in the mind of God and all the memories of what He went through. which were then conveyed to the risen Christ.

    I believe I will try to find that.
     
  5. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Cool. What small matters do you have a problem with?

    Isn't this then a problem with semantics and definitions? Because I have read and heard that modalists are heretics. I read this in a wikipedia entry on modalism: "Though much debate occurred, gradually all Monarchians became silenced, and the Trinitarian view gained prominence being adopted in the First Council of Constantinople. After this, Modalistic Monarchianism was labeled as a heresy under the name of Sabellianism." Apparently Modalism is not Trinitarianism and Modalistic Monarchianism is considered a heresy. Read the article and let me know what you think: Modalistic Monarchianism - Wikipedia

    Do you believe that God has three separate personas within himself or that he takes three different forms?

    I think your viewpoint is becoming clearer to me. Would air then be a better simile? Since ruach can mean air and spirit? And do you believe that God is in everything? That everything is a part of God?

    OK. That seems to fit my viewpoint that Jesus was an Avatar. The eternal Spirit of God was in Jesus. I think I am beginning to understand your viewpoint clearer.
     
  6. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    @Israel Khan said : "The way the Bible describes the Father, the Ancient of days is that he sits on the throne as supreme. The Son, Jesus christ, is the word, which can be seen as verbal communication between God and man, and the Holy Spirit is Gods actual body which does stuff. Even the titles Son and Father gives the idea that the main God is superior to the Son. There is a hierarchy." (post #2)


    @calm said : The "word" is not a communication but the "creation". Through the "word" God creates everything. When God says: Let there be light! Then it is the "word". And the "word" is God Himself, for it goes out of His mouth. (post #3)


    As you create your models, remember that the ancient Judeo-Christians also used this term and it had specific meanings and uses in their early literature. For examples :

    "THE WORD AS A PERSONAGE EXISTING AT THE BEGINNING OF CREATION
    As you create your models regarding to what such ancient terms referred to, remember also that “the Word of God” was an honorable epithet for the son of God that existed in the beginning with God the Father.

    While John refers to this personage in john 1:1 " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.:"

    Barnabas also identifies “the word” with the earthly Jesus as having been in the beginning with his Father by saying “ And furthermore, my brothers: if the Lord submitted to suffer for our souls, even though he is Lord of the whole world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man according to our image and likeness, how is it, then, that he submitted to suffer at the hands of men.?“ The Epistle of Barnabas 5:5,

    ANCIENT APPLICATION OF THE EPITHET "THE WORD" TO THE INCARNATE MESSIAH, JESUS
    Similarly, Phillip identifies “The word” as Jesus : " The word said, 'If you know the truth, the truth will make you free'. Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom…” The gospel of Phillip

    New Testament John speaks of "the word" and his incarnation, saying : And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14;

    Some early texts similarly refer to Jesus as “the incarnation” of “the Word”. For example, “...To us the holy angels of God announce (both) the incarnation of the Word of God, who (is) from the holy virgin, the mother of God, and all those things which (he) provides and perfects and endures for the sake of the salvation of mortals....." History of the Rechabites 12:9a and 9f-g;


    "THE WORD" AND HIS ROLE AS CO-CREATOR
    Much of the early Judeo-Christian literature refers to Jesus’ as “the Word” and describes his various roles such as his role as the creator under the direction of the Father.

    This concept that “the word” not only became the savior, but that he was also the creator of the world under direction of the father, permeates early Judeo-Christian literature. Thus baruch reads : “ O hear me, you who created the earth, the one who fixed the firmament by the word…" The apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 21:4-5;

    New Testament Clement (phil 4:3) also identified Jesus as this word who created the world, he referred to God the Father as “…the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ, through whom he called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the knowledge….” 1 Clement 59:2-3

    Jewish Haggadah describes Adam being special since he was created by the Father, whereas all other things were created by “the Word”, (the same appellation of the pre-mortal Messiah in early Christian texts). Thus Haggadah reads : “The superiority of man to the other creatures is apparent in the very manner of his creation, altogether different from theirs. He is the only one who was created by the hand of God. The rest sprang from the Word of God.” The Haggadah (Man and the world)

    "THE WORD" AND HIS ROLE IN CASTING SATAN OUT OF HEAVEN
    Some of the early Coptic psalms refer to Jesus’/”the word”s’ role as “the word” who not only “saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven”(luke 10:18), but who play a role in Satans fall from heaven, Psalm 223 (Coptic) speaks of the war in heaven and “the Words role” saying “… there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they..." THE COPTIC PSALM-BOOK - Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11) (such references are part of the rich historical literature concerning the origin of Satan literature of early Jewish, Islamic and Christian historical literature).

    "THE WORD" AND HIS INVOLVEMENT IN OLD TESTAMENT TIMES
    His roles and involvement in the Old Testament era history is written into much of the early literature, using this same epithet : “The word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Go and declare to my people their evil deeds..." Fourth Book of Ezra 1 :4-7;

    ...the word of the Lord came to Baruch, the son of Neriah, and said to him...”Have you seen all that this people are doing to me, the evil things which the two tribes which remained have done….” The apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 1:2-5;

    The early Christian decensus literature also applies this epithet to Jesus in discussing Jesus descent into Hades after his death and before the resurrection : “But when the Devil perceived that the Word of the Father had come down upon the earth, he said: ‘Do not fear, Hades; we will make fast the gates and make strong our bars…” The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one

    "THE WORD" AT THE END OF THE AGES
    In New Testament Revelations it uses this same epithet for Jesus at the “end of days”, saying “And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God…" Rev 19:11-16;


    My point is that we need to remember that such epithets had meaning to the early Judeo-Christians. While there may be multiple modern theories regarding who or what “the word” is. I do not think that any of the modern theories for the use of this honorary epithet are any more logical or rational than the early Judeo-Christian use of the term in its application to the Messiah whether in his pre-creation roles, Old Testament roles, or end of the age roles.


    In any case, good luck in coming up with your own models as to what these ancient terms meant and how they might apply to your religious models.


    Clear
    δρακτωω
     
    #46 Clear, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    It only makes sense that we interpret the Bibles use of terms in the way the writers meant them to be understood. Any model I come up with falls flat if it is based on ignorance. So I will keep your post in a word document.

    Thanks for the info.
     
  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    The 'Spirit of God' is God's chosen Messenger. This is the virgin birth. Though born from the womb, God's Messengers are born of the Holy Spirit, they are not like us, more than man. They are the Word.

    We are born of the Human Spirit, which the Messenger shares with us while in this earth, but for us, we need the Spirit of Faith, to be 'born again' in the knowledge of the Holy Spirit. In that way we are born into the spirit and become spirit.

    If not, we who born of the flesh, remain flesh. We are the dead that bury the dead.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Jesus lived in the first century. So the fact that it was first written in the second century tells me its not a part of the original teachings.
     
  10. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    I was just correcting you on the idea that the concept was created by Constantine. The seeds of it started from the Bible and gradually developed until years after Constantine.

    Certainly, the Bible itself and how it is written is the basis of the confusion though. It plants the seed for both Unitarianism,Trinitarianism, Arianism and all the other Christian concepts of God.

    In fact, even the Jews have concepts of a lesser Yahweh, which isn't the traditional viewpoint of who God is in Judaism, because the Old Testament plants the seeds for it:

    Metatron - Wikipedia
     
    #50 Israel Khan, Jul 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  11. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Then we people are a small god too?
    Eggs are small gods too - shell, white, yolk
    3 in 1 coffee are small gods too - coffee, sugar, milk
    Now the Three Stooges....
    [​IMG]
     
  12. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 1:8 New International Version (NIV)
    “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    It was the Lord God who spoke not the Lord Jesus Christ.
    So the referred verse is inappropriately used

    [​IMG]

    Matthew 28:18 New International Version (NIV)
    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    This was spoken by Jesus Christ.
    But may I ask who gave "all authority in heaven and on earth" to Jesus?
     
  13. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    John 20:28-29 New International Version (NIV)
    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    upload_2019-7-14_19-51-29.jpeg

    Was apostle Thomas expressing his faith or was it an expression of total surprise?

    Let us read from verse 20 to 27 to know exactly the frame of mind of apostle Thomas before he saw Jesus.

    John 20:20-27 New International Version (NIV)
    After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

    Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

    Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

    But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

    A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

    upload_2019-7-14_20-5-25.jpeg [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
     
  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Colossians 1:15 New International Version (NIV)
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    Can anybody see invisible?
    Example, can anybody see oxygen?
    So someone who is invisible is featureless because they do not have any physical appearance at all.
    This is true with God.as the verse said ....the invisible God

    So how could the Son be described as the image of the invisible God?
    What is the common attribute that God have and Jesus have?

    God is holy and Jesus Christ is holy

    Revelation 4:8 New International Version (NIV)
    Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

    ‘Holy, holy, holy

    is the Lord God Almighty,’


    who was, and is, and is to come.”


    Luke 1:35 New International Version (NIV)

    The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

    The difference between the Lord God Almighty and between the Son of God is
    The Son of God is the firstborn over all creation
    While the Lord God Almighty is the creator of the Son of God.

    [I wonder why people have that nasty habit of omitting things?]

    [​IMG]
     
  15. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    The formulation of the Trinity is Catholic. The word 'Trinity' is found nowhere in either Scripture. But in several places are mentioned God the Father, Jesus the Son, the Holy Spirit. Even in Hebrew Scripture there is a dialogue within God himself.


    The dogma of the triune God, of the Trinity (the word comes from the third century and the classical formulation of the doctrine from the fourth), is stressed by some as the central mystery of Christianity and rejected by others as Hellenistic speculation alien to Scripture.


    In the Acts of the Apostles, by the Evangelist Luke, we find an account -substantially historical but embellished with legend- of the execution in Jerusalem of the first Christian martyr, the Hellenist Stephen, who was said - in words echoing Jesus - to have been "using blasphemous language against Moses and against God...against this Holy Place and the Law." In his defense speech, probably edited by Luke himself on the basis of the material, Stephen gives a general description of Israel's salvation history from the call of Abraham to the prophets and as a justification of his Christian faith, appeals expressly to "the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob," who appeared to Moses. Only in the last two sentences does he mention - without naming him - the murder of Jesus. Immediately after the condemnation - just before his own death - he had a vision: "Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand. ' I can see heaven thrown open', he said, 'and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Here Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned together, or - as Luke puts it - God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But Stephen does not see, as is so often depicted in Christian art - a triangle in heaven or even a three-faced Deity (trikephalos) and still less the repeatedly produced representation - despite the warnings of Benedict XIV (1754) - in later times of three men with the same figure. No, the Holy Spirit is at his side, in Stephen himself. The invisible force and power proceeding from God fills him entirely and thus opens his eyes: in the Spirit, heaven is shown to him. But God himself remains hidden. Only - quite in the Old Testament sense - his "glory" (Hebrew kabod, Greek doxa) is visible: God's brightness and power, the brilliance of the light that proceeds from him. But Jesus does not sit: he stands, not of course in front of God but at his right hand: that is, in the same power and glory. As Son of God exalted and taken up into God's eternal life, he is representative of God and at the same time as man representative of men.

    The Apostle Paul reflected more closely, as the first Christian theologian, on the nature and operation of the Spirit, and described the relations between Father, Son and Spirit. For Paul, not only are man's more or less extraordinary individual deeds or experiences determined by the Spirit but also the very existence of the believer, his day to day existence. Paul sees the Spirit wholly in the light of that turning point which was decisive for him: the death and resurrection of Jesus. Since it was revealed there that God
    himself acted in Jesus, the Spirit of God can now rightly be understood also as the Spirit of Jesus taken up to God.
    God effects salvation through Jesus in the Spirit. God's power , force , Spirit are now so completely possessed by Jesus as the Lord exalted to God that he not only has power and control over the Spirit, but
    in virtue of the resurrection , can be understood himself as Spirit.

    There is no absolute identity of two personal agencies, but that the Lord raised up to God is now in the existence and mode of operation of the Spirit. He appears to be identical with the Spirit as soon as he
    is considered not in himself but in his action on the Church and on individuals. The Jesus now taken up to God acts at the present time through the Spirit, in the Spirit, as Spirit. In the Spirit, the risen Christ is himself present; in the life of the individual, in the life of the community of faith, and especially in the liturgy, in the eucharistic celebration in memory of him. Thus the identification of the Lord with the Spirit and the subordination of the Spirit to the Lord can coexist. The expressions "in the Spirit" and "in Christ", "the Spirit in us" and "Christ in us" can be regarded as parallels and in practice as interchangeable. In the encounter of "God," "Lord and "Spirit" with the believer, it is in the last resort a question of one and the same encounter, of the one action of God himself: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

    In the farewell discourses in John, where the Spirit is given the personal characteristics of an "advocate" and "helper" (this and not 'comforter' is the meaning of "the other paraclete"). The Spirit is the representative on earth of the risen Christ. He is sent by the Father in the name of Jesus. So he speaks not of himself but merely recalls what Jesus himself said.

    This can be drawn directly from new Testament sources. It is more understandable, more illuminating than the many speculations of later times - often very remote from the New Testament and little more than pure philosophizing - on the one divine nature (physis, ousia, essence, substance) in the three divine persons (hypostases, subsistences, prosopa, relations). ------Kung, The Church
     
  16. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    John 1:1-4; 14 New International Version (NIV)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Is the Word - Jesus Christ? Or is the Word something else?
    If the Word is Jesus Christ the we should replace the Word and the relevant pronouns in John 1:14 to Jesus Christ and find out if it really makes sense and if it is indeed Jesus Christ.

    1 In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was with God, and Jesus Christ was God. 2 Jesus Christ was with God in the beginning. 3 Through Jesus Christ all things were made; without Jesus Christ nothing was made that has been made. 4 In Jesus Christ was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    In the beginning was Jesus Christ...
    I believe Jesus Christ did not exist yet.
    In fact Jesus Christ existed and named as Jesus when Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ.

    upload_2019-7-14_21-55-27.jpeg

    Matthew 1:18 New International Version (NIV)
    This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

    In the beginning was Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ was with God, ....
    If Jesus Christ [the Word] was with God
    THEN Jesus Christ is not God because he was with God.

    1 In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was with God, and Jesus Christ was God.
    And assuming if the Word is Jesus Christ; and Jesus Christ was God
    That means to show that Jesus Christ isn't God
    Why the past tense all about?

    Therefore the Word in John 1:1-4 isn't Jesus Christ per se
    but the plan about Jesus Christ

    Jesus Christ is indeed came as flesh
    The antichrists do not believe that Jesus has come in the flesh

    2 John 7 New International Version (NIV)

    I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    or as the Common English Bible puts it

    2 John 7 Common English Bible (CEB)
    Many deceivers have gone into the world who do not confess that Jesus Christ came as a human being. This kind of person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    What do the deceivers then confess?
    They unwittingly say that Jesus Christ is God and not as a human being.
    God is not a human being
    A human being is not God

    Hosea 11:9 Common English Bible (CEB)

    I won’t act on the heat of my anger;
    I won’t return to destroy Ephraim;
    for I am God and not a human being,
    the holy one in your midst;
    I won’t come in harsh judgment.
     
  17. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    BORING!
     
  18. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Jesus in his state is a human being
    Jesus is a man
    Jesus is not God because he has a beginning
    Jesus is not God because he is a man, a touchable human being
    Jesus is not God because he is not a spirit

    However Jesus is to be worshiped
    Jesus was worshiped
    Jesus also worshiped God, his Father
    Jesus is worshiped as the Son of God, Messiah and Lord
    Jesus is not worshiped as God and should not be worshiped as God

    When Jesus Christ said "I and the father are one"
    Did Jesus Christ say they are of the same nature, and the same person?
    Or is it some other manner?

    John 10:25-30 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    Jesus answered:

    I have told you, and you refused to believe me. The things I do by my Father’s authority show who I am. But since you are not my sheep, you don’t believe me. My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father gave them to me, and he is greater than all others. No one can snatch them from his hands, and I am one with the Father.

    John 10:25-30 The Message (MSG)
    Jesus answered, “I told you, but you don’t believe. Everything I have done has been authorized by my Father, actions that speak louder than words. You don’t believe because you’re not my sheep. My sheep recognize my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them real and eternal life. They are protected from the Destroyer for good. No one can steal them from out of my hand. The Father who put them under my care is so much greater than the Destroyer and Thief. No one could ever get them away from him. I and the Father are one heart and mind.”

    When Jesus Christ said "I and the Father are one."
    He did not mean one and the same
    He meant that
    I am one with the Father.
    I and the Father are one heart and mind.”

    If you believe that Jesus and the Father are one and the same
    then you and the atheist have one kind of Jesus in mind

    [​IMG]

    Even the Godless and Irreligious believe Jesus and the father are one
    So....

    [​IMG]
     
  20. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    God as the Savior (Redeemer) is inherent in God while Jesus became the Savior as God made him the Savior.

    Acts 5:31 New International Version (NIV)
    God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.

    Who was exalted by God? Jesus Christ
    Therefore Jesus Christ is not God
    God exalted Jesus Christ as Savior
    Is it in the Bible? It is in the Bible.

    God is the rock and Jesus is the rock - that does not mean Jesus is God.
    [​IMG]

    God judges the world and Christ is the appointed Judge

    Acts 17:31 New International Version (NIV)
    For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

    Did God appoint another god to judge the world?
    The Lord God appointed a man
    A man whom God raised from the dead.

    God Almighty is Lord - and His Lordship is natural and inherent in Him
    Jesus Christ is Lord - and his lordship was given by the Lord God

    Acts 2:36 New International Version (NIV)
    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

    Is it in the Bible? It is in the Bible.
    God is the first and only God
    Jesus is the firstborn overall creation
    God is God
    Jesus is not God
     
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