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Featured Why don't you understand the Trinity?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by calm, Jul 12, 2019.

  1. calm

    calm Active Member

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    What exactly is the problem?

    We people are a small trinity too. We people consist of a body, a soul and a spirit. And yet we are not each 3 people but only one human.

    Are there a soul and a spirit?
    Yes.
    The Bible mentions and differentiates spirit, soul and body.
    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear those who kill the body but can not kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    James 2:26
    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


    What is the difference between body, soul and spirit?
    The body is the physical part, you can touch it and see it. The soul is your personality (will, conscience, mind, thoughts ...) you can not touch or see the soul and yet it feels pains like the body. The difference to the body is that one can not hurt the soul with blows but with insulting words. With the spirit, you can communicate with God(holy spirit).


    It is the same with God, he consists of a body, a soul and a spirit. And yet it is not three Gods but only one God. The body(physical part) of God is Jesus, the soul(personality) of God is the Father and the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit. Now you ask yourself what Jesus was before he became human (body). The answer is, he did not exist and did exist anyway. Jesus as person did not exist but his nature(God) was always there. It's like people. If somebody asks a human, how long do you exist? Then you have 2 answer possibilities. The first one is: since my birth. The second is: Since Adam and Eve. The first answer is related to the person himself, the second is related to the nature. All people are one nature, namely: human. So it is with God the Father, God the Son and God the spirit, they are one nature, namely: God. So, if you ask Jesus, how long do you exist? Then he also has several answer possibilities, but there is 1 difference with Jesus, he consists of 2 beings, he is the son of a human and the son of God, he is 100% human and 100% God at the same time. So, if you ask him: How long do you exist? Then he have 3 possible answers, the first one is: Since my birth (as the person himself) the second is: Since Adam and Eve (as human), the third is: I have no beginning (as God).

    Is Jesus God?
    1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
    2. Jesus is called God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)(Hebrews 1:8)(Isaiah 9:6)
    3. Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
    4. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
    5. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
    6. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
    7. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
    8. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
    9. God will judge the world (Psalm 98: 9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
    10. God is the rock (1 Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
    11. God is the Lord of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
    12. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44: 6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17)
    13. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
    14. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does the father honor (John 5:23)
    15. Jesus is the Creator (Romans 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
    16. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God (John 14:9)
    17. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
    Is the Holy spirit a person?
    Many passages in the Bible prove that the Holy Spirit is a person.
    The Bible shows in many places that the Holy Spirit is acting, and that can only be said by one person.
    The Holy Spirit ...
    • teaches the disciples (Luke 12:12, John 14:26, 1 Cor 2:13)
    • recalls the words of the Lord (John 14:26)
    • bears witness to God (John 15:26)
    • convict the world of sin, justice and judgment (Jn. 16:8-11)
    • leads believers into the whole truth (Jn 16:13)
    • announce the coming to the disciples (Jn 16:13)
    • talks about the things of the God (Jn 16:13)
    • glorify Jesus (Jn 16:14).
    • speaks to believers (Acts 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 20:23; 21:11; 28:25)
    • encourages saints (Acts 9:31)
    • prevents disciples from doing anything (Acts 16:6)
    • forbids disciples to do anything (Acts 16:7)
    • leads the sons(Romans 8:14, Gal 5:18)
    • affirm with our spirit that we are children of God (Ro 8:16)
    • helps believers in their weakness (Romans 8:26)
    • uses God for believers according to (Romans 8:27)
    • explore the depths of God (1 Cor 2:10)
    • distributes gifts according to His will (1 Cor 12:11)
    • writes on flesh-tablets of the heart (2 Cor 3:3)
    • foretells the future (1 Tim 4:1)
    • witnesses the forgiveness of sins to Christians (Heb. 10:15)
    • resting on self-proclaiming Christians (1 Pet 4:14)
    • speaks to meetings (Rev 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22)
    • explains the words of God (Rev 14,13)
    • call to Jesus(Rev 22,17)

    The Scriptures not only show that the Spirit of God is acting, but are also presented as someone with whom something happens.
    The Holy Spirit can ...
    • to be blasphemed (Mark 3:29,30)
    • be lied to (Acts 5:3)
    • be tried, that is, put to the test (Acts 5:9)
    • to be fought (Acts 7:51)
    • be saddened (Eph 4:30)
    • reviled (Heb 10:29)

    Many passages in the Bible prove that the Holy Spirit is also God.
    Many of the quoted scriptures already make it clear that the mind is not just a person but also God. But because this point is so important, I would like to shed some light on it.
    First of all, the Spirit is explicitly called the Spirit of God in Holy Scripture (Gen. 1: 2, Mt 3:16).
    Acts 5:3-4 (emphasis added) is very clear: "And Peter said, Ananias, why did Satan fill your heart, that you lied to the Holy Spirit and took away the proceeds of the field? ... You have not lied to humans, but to God. "
    more:
    • omnipresent (Ps 139,7)
    • omniscient (Isa 40:13; 1 Cor 2:11)
    • Almighty (Job 26:13)
    • sovereign (John 3:8; 1 Cor 12: 4-11)
    • eternal (Heb 9.14)
     
  2. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    The Trinity is a specific idea about the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. One can believe that the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God and not be a Trinitarian. I think that the Trinity is inefficient to explain many verses and those verses undermine it.

    I would say that the Trinitarian idea that the three are co-equal is nowhere found in scriptures. They seem to be fragments extending from the main body of God, who is the Ancient of Days, always sitting on the throne, which is the source of the rest. So God is more accurately described as one divided into fragments.

    The way the Bible describes the Father, the Ancient of days is that he sits on the throne as supreme. The Son, Jesus christ, is the word, which can be seen as verbal communication between God and man, and the Holy Spirit is Gods actual body which does stuff. Even the titles Son and Father gives the idea that the main God is superior to the Son. There is a hierarchy.

    I would see the nature of God as based on a near eastern view of a god, who can share power and exist in multiple bodies at the same time by splitting himself up.

    At least from what I understand it.
     
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  3. calm

    calm Active Member

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    The "word" is not a communication but the "creation". Through the "word" God creates everything. When God says: Let there be light! Then it is the "word". And the "word" is God Himself, for it goes out of His mouth.
     
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  4. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    That is a very good point. I would say it is both then. The Word communicates with others and causes creation.

    Genesis 3:8 says, “And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

    King James Bible
    And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
     
  5. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Also your explanation only mentions that Jesus was the manifestation of the Words of God. The word having creative power in itself. So it would fit my view that it extends from the main body and is a manifestation of God's thoughts as well.
     
  6. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Calm says , 'We people consist of a body, a soul and a spirit.'
    We have a body, as for soul and a spirit, in the religious sense of those words, they are only a belief, not a fact.
     
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  7. calm

    calm Active Member

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    The word became later man. And man was Jesus. And because it became human, there was a connection to God. God became like man in his nature. Everyone who has seen Jesus has seen God. It is like with a programmer who developed a game. One day the programmer wanted to get into his game, but because he himself cannot get into his own game, he developed a character and he controlled this character. Everyone who has seen his character in the game has seen the programmer. The programmer was now connected to his game.
    The programmer is the father.
    The character is Jesus.
    And the game is the world.
     
    #7 calm, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  8. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    The god of the Bible is a human creation, imo, as there is no verifiable evidence to support its existence.
     
  9. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    That is similar what I have been saying then, Jesus would be an Avatar. In fact the character in the video game IS the Avatar of the controller.

    What you are describing is not the Trinity though. The Trinity is very specific as per the conclusions of the many councils. So you might not believe in the Trinity yourself.
     
  10. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Isn't that besides the point? One can still discuss a concept without it existing in the real world. Consider it like discussing Harry Potter and what the books say about him.
     
  11. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    I also discussed this with SA Huguenot on a thread of his. Apparently Jesus being a character (or mechanical suit) controlled by God doesn't work. A part of God has to physically be in Jesus.
     
  12. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    I hadn't noticed that any religion has been built around the Harry Potter books even though they are a much better read than the Bible, imo.

    It is a concern when people believe something to be literally true when they have no proper evidence to support their belief, especially when they try to force their belief on others with threats if they don't convert.:mad:
     
  13. calm

    calm Active Member

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    Of course I believe in the Trinity.
     
  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    The simple Truth is;

    John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

    No in body and all we can know of God in Spirit.

    No and Yes - The Holy Spirit is Spirit, the body is the Word made flesh.

    Regards Tony
     
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  15. calm

    calm Active Member

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    @Israel Khan
    If you play a computer game and control a character, you're 2 in one. two but only one personality
    the similar is also the case with the trinity
     
    #15 calm, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  16. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    I like asking them "on what basis should I believe you?"
     
  17. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    From what I understand of the Trinity there are three persons in one being which means that they have three different personalities, but are in perfect unity.

    When playing a Character you aren't two in one. You are controlling a character. The character has no personality. Your illustration works with regard to agency, in which God speaks through angels, but he isn't the angel itself.

    With the Trinity that character cannot just be controlled by God, part of God has to actually be in that character. The Son is eternal according to the Trinity, so before he came in the flesh he was a separate persona to the Father in heaven. God is eternally 3 in 1. So that third, the Son, had to be incarnate in a physical being.
     
  18. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    Could be that the idea of a Trinity was first put out there and promoted by those Jesus said would come after him and claim to speak for him, and warned to not listen to them for they are false prophets.
     
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  19. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    There was actually a whole Christology discussion after Jesus died spanning centuries. The seed of the Trinitarian concept came about when Tertullian was debating a modalist. The council of Nicaea came about because Athanasius and Arius were having a debate. It seems more likely that the Bible confused many people, and that can be seen today where people are still arguing over it. They were trying to solve a debate. Maybe the Bible left it open to debate for a reason. The biggest problem with the Trinity is that people say one must be a Trinitarian in order to be a Christian rather than saying it is one option out of many possibilities.
     
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Well-Known Member
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    I haven't read the replies to this thread yet. But the title of this thread and the intro question seem disingenuous.

    You already have determined the answer, right? Based on your previous statement:

    You believe that without the Holy Spirit, I will never be able to understand.

    You answered your own question.
     
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