1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Why don’t Baha’is in forums ever talk about what their religion is really all about?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Jim, Apr 30, 2019.

  1. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    I wasn’t talking about you when I said that. Are you disagreeing that in debating with Baha’is people sometimes make sweeping, vilifying generalizations about Baha’is in general, without doing anything to find out if what they’re saying about Baha’is in general is actually true or not?

    Looking back now, I do see you making an implicit vilifying generalization about Baha’is in general. In the context of what most Baha’is are doing, you present a vilifying interpretation of a message from the the House of Justice, as a possible reason for what a few Baha’is are doing in Internet forums, as if that’s how it will be understood and applied by most Baha’is.
     
  2. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    3,854
    Ratings:
    +2,882
    Where did I say proselytizing was a bad thing? What is bad is proselytizing whilst pretending that that is not what you are doing. What is bad is deliberately attempting to convince people that what you believe is the same as what they believe when you know very well that is not true. I don't have an "agenda" - I'm just calling it as I see it...I don't see why that causes so much consternation and backlash - but don't worry, I'm neither offended nor intimidated - if you want a frank and honest discussion about the tenets of your faith, I'm still game. If anyone doesn't, I have no idea what they are doing in religious debate forum.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  3. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    3,854
    Ratings:
    +2,882
    I wasn't taking it personally, just pointing that if some have done I have not. And I did not present a 'vilifying interpretation' of the UHJ letter, I quoted a fairly large portion of it verbatim. If that is 'vilifying' I suggest you take it up with the UHJ - they wrote it.

    Anyway, all that apart, the most important part of my post was the last part:

    Are you ready and willing to answer that question - or not? If not, I really don't know what you are (again) complaining about (apart from everything).
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    @siti I’ve always thought better of you than this. What you’re doing right now to Baha’is looks exactly to me like the tactics that campaigns against Muslims use, ripping the Quran out of its social and cultural context, and interpreting it in a way that vilifies all Muslims.
     
  5. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +8,267
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    Achieving world peace?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    22,535
    Ratings:
    +9,385
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    Are Bahais doing more than what Christians do? So, I do not understand what they are bragging about. These things are 'dharma' and every one should be doing it without any desire of return. In Hinduism, we have a saying "Gupta daana, maha daana" (What is given without advertising is the biggest giving). The left hand should not know what the right hand is doing.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    3,854
    Ratings:
    +2,882
    @Jim - I quoted a fairly long passage from a letter from the UHJ which you directed us to look at to see what it is that the UHJ is encouraging Baha'is to do - it is not out of context at all - and then I asked you a question - how on earth are you interpreting that as 'vilification'? Now how about you stop complaining and (for the third time of asking) give a straight answer to the question: what is it that the UHJ wants all Baha'is to do?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    22,535
    Ratings:
    +9,385
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    It is about Bahullah being the manifestation of their one God replacing the messages of all manifestations prior to him by "progressive revelation" (alas, the One God cannot draft a message which will last for ever, he seems to need legal and secretarial assistance); and of course whatever % of income that the House of Justice desires from its adherents to the cause of Bahaullah (making more temples of worship). Islam mandated 2.5%, which Pakistan deducts from the bank accounts of people as a routine. Funny world, is not it?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    6,060
    Ratings:
    +2,603
    Religion:
    undecided
    We went so far off the topic of the OP in that thread... it was awesome. I don't even know what the point of this thread is. Siti's been asking for the answer to what Baha'i headquarters really wants them to be doing and I haven't seen a Baha'i answer yet. What's going on here?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    Sorry, I might be the one who dragged it off topic. My topic originally was why don’t Bahá’ís in Internet discussions ever talk about what Baha’i communities are doing most of all, with other people, everywhere in the world. I thought that maybe they’re ashamed of it, but now I see that it might be more that they don’t understand it. Or both. Or neither. I’m still waiting to see if there’s any better explanation.
     
  11. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    No, I don’t think it’s obvious at all, even to Baha’is. I’ve seen many Baha’is, including most or all the ones I’ve seen in Internet discussions, who don’t seem to me to have any clue of what it’s all about.
     
  12. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    3,854
    Ratings:
    +2,882
    OK - and notwithstanding the apparent contradiction in these two comments - why don't you just tell us then? What IS it all about?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    Hopefully that too, but that isn’t what I meant. Maybe it needs clarification. I’m talking about some specific activities at the heart of the community life of a growing number of Baha’i communities, activities which the House of Justice has been promoting most of all for more than 15 years; and the context in which it has been promoting them. The words I italicized are another clue to help Baha’is to guess what I’m talking about, if any of them would like to try. Adrian has named two of them.
     
  14. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    It’s only a contradiction if you presume that Baha’is who don’t know, really want to know.

    Half an hour might be an exaggeration. It might take an hour or two, for some people. Also it only applies to people with access to the whole Internet. It might need clarification. I’m talking about some specific activities which are at the heart of the community life of a growing number of Baha’i communities, and which the House of Justice has been promoting for more than 15 years.
     
  15. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    22,535
    Ratings:
    +9,385
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    It is not about God. Bahais agree that it is the same as of anyone else's AND ONLY ONE (that, unfortunately, leaves out most of Hindus, Buddhist and Jains, who have no God). The tussle is about the messenger of this One God's message and finality. For Jews it is their prophet Moses, for Christians it is his son Jesus, for Muslims it is his messenger Mohammad, for LDS it is Saint Joseph Smith, for Ahmadiyyas it is mahdi Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and for Bahais it is manifestation Bahaullah. I wish there was any way to solve this tangle.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Unguru

    Unguru I am a Sikh nice to meet you

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2018
    Messages:
    345
    Ratings:
    +129
    Religion:
    Sikh
    You told me you where a Monist, yet you seem to only limit your so-called Monism to Advaita? what gives?
    If all really is Brahman, then surely you would even except those all in their apparent falseness? (falseness being another wave in the sea of Brahman?)
     
  17. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    2,426
    Ratings:
    +1,769
    A suggestion to answer to your last sentence.

    Maybe they should make some sort of challenge (non-violent) between them.
    Something like the challenge between Maulvi Sanaullah & Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(Muhbala Challenge).
    If everyone agreed the winner would unite the rest and there would be only one religion amongst them.

    It still wouldn't help most Hindus, Buddhist, Jains and other non-theistic belief systems and may result in non-theists being more persecuted because of the unity amongst the above mentioned.


    Mubahalah Challenge
    Mubahalah Challenge | Claims of the Promised Messiah
     
  18. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    22,535
    Ratings:
    +9,385
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    I do. I accept that Hitler, Pot Pot, Stalin, Osama, Caliph Ibrahim, Jack the Ripper were/are none other than Brahman, since nothing other than Brahman exists in the world. But there are two levels of reality - The Absolute (Paramarthika Satya) and the Pragmatic (Vyavaharika Satya). I accept them at the Paramarthika level but not at the Vyavaharika level. The two levels cannot be mixed up.

    On a scientific level, do I know that the 66% water in my body has a molecule of H20 which was not a part of Stalin's body at any one time? Air/water vapor do not accept the boundaries of countries. We think we are exclusive of our environment, but that is not true. The exchange of molecules is taking place with every breath. Basically we are all one, humans, animals, vegetation and non-living substances, all constituted by Brahman. The differences, name and form, Name-Roopa, etc., that you see in this illusory world are just appearances.
     
    #78 Aupmanyav, May 1, 2019
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    22,535
    Ratings:
    +9,385
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    Oh, we are not afraid of that. As Allama Mohammad Iqbal, the National poet of Pakistan, once said:

    Yūnān-o-Miṣr-o-Rūmā, sab miṭ ga'e jahāṉ se, Ab tak magar hai bāqī, nām-o-nis̱ẖaṉ hamārā;
    Kuch bāt hai ki hastī, miṭ'tī nahīṉ hamārī, Ṣadiyoṉ rahā hai dus̱ẖman daur-e-zamāṉ hamārā.


    In a world in which ancient Greece, Egypt and Rome have all vanished, but our own name and sign lives on even today;
    there is something about our existence that it doesn't get wiped out, though the cycle of time has been our enemy for centuries.
    Sare Jahan se Accha - Wikipedia
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    17,561
    Ratings:
    +2,011
    "Nice" does not mean not to tell the truth. If the Bahaullah people are used to conceal the truth, then others must expose them. Right, please?

    Regards
     
Loading...