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Featured Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I think it is called God’s kingdom for a reason. But in Biblical point of view, there can be many builders. However, all the builders have basically same mind, same plan, they do God’s will and therefore it is from God. So, if people build, they should build by God’s plan, else it fails. And that plan is in the Bible.


    For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's farming, God's building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another builds on it. But let each man be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay any other foundation than that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ. But if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or stubble; each man's work will be revealed. For the Day will declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself will test what sort of work each man's work is. If any man's work remains which he built on it, he will receive a reward.

    1 Cor. 3:9-14
     
  2. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think is should be only part-time thing to love and live as the Bible tells?
     
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  3. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    My fuse only lasts so long though. :) Teaching 4th graders ate away at a lot of my patience and convinced me that I never want children. :p

    That's not making fun. That's criticizing. I expect the Truth/Way to be able to withstand some criticism. Being courteous doesn't mean you should get away with never hearing a critical observation.
     
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  4. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Some people brains are wired to hear voices and others aren't.

    I used to think anyone with enough faith could communicate with God. Now I suspect there's a lot of folks can't have a conversation with God regardless of how much faith and conviction they put forth.
     
  5. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Not every Sea hath Pearls,
    Not every branch may flower,
    Nor may the Nightingale sing thereon,
    then, ere the Nightingale of the Mystic Paradise ....
    ...repair to the garden of God......
    and the rays of the Heavenly morn...
    ..... depart to the son of Truth,
    MAKE THEE AN EFFORT................ >>>>>

    O-B addition>>>> .......... to actually investigate the evidences that have been layed before your feet.
    :shrug:
     
    #425 oldbadger, Jun 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Criticism of beliefs is fine but criticism can be delivered in a courteous manner. It takes some discipline but once one gets the hang of it, it becomes natural.

    Facetiousness is making fun and it unnecessary to get one's point across. In fact, it loses the audience so the point is entirely missed. Direct communication works best.
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Anyone can talk to God and God hears them, but I do not believe that God talks back.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I certainly agree that Jesus laid the foundation and Jesus was the Herald of the Kingdom that was to be built later.

    The following chapters are from the book entitled Christ and Baha'u'llah

    The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . . . .14
    Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom . . . . . . 20

    Where in the Bible is there an actual Plan for building the Kingdom of God on earth?
    Baha’u’llah formulated a Plan and wrote the blue-print instructions by which humans will build the Kingdom.
    The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

    Anyone of the same mind can help in the Kingdom. They do not have to be Baha’is.
     
  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Really? From your posts, I thought this was your main reason for being here.
     
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  10. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I think it is in these:

    Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight, that I wouldn't be delivered to the Jews. But now my kingdom is not from here."
    John 18:36

    "The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation; neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."
    Luke 17:20-21

    Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
    John 3:3-7

    It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
    John 6:63

    Once, Jesus sent his disciples to preach the Kingdom of God. He sent them forth to preach the Kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
    Luke 9:2


    "Therefore don't be anxious, saying, 'What will we eat?', 'What will we drink?' or, 'With what will we be clothed?' For the Gentiles seek after all these things, for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first God's Kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things will be given to you as well.

    Matthew 6:31-33

    But the whole Bible is important part in understanding and being born anew, because it can cause the change in persons heart that was foretold in OT.


    Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;

    Deuteronomy 30:6-9

    For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
    Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What is it about my posts that indicate this to you?
    • Is it the fact that I keep telling people that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself?
    • Or the fact that I tell people it is not my responsibility to present evidence to them when I am asked to do so constantly?
    • Or is it the fact that I share information about my religion, just like other religious people do?
    Sharing information about my religion so people will know about it is not the same thing as trying to convert them.
    It is quite arrogant for people to think they know what my motives are. I never think about anyone else's motives but my own. It is none of my business and a waste of my time.
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Thanks for those verses. Clearly, Jesus laid the “foundation” for the future Kingdom of God on earth by spiritualizing humanity, and without this foundation the Kingdom would not be possible. Jesus was also the Herald of the Kingdom, the Harbinger who came to announce the coming of the Kingdom.

    From: Christ and Baha'u'llah

    The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . . . .14
    Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom . . . . . . 20

    With all due respect, those verses refer to the Kingdom of God that is within you and the Kingdom of God that is in heaven, not the earthly Kingdom of God. That Kingdom had to exist within the hearts of man in order to prepare them to build the actual Kingdom of God on earth.

    What I am referring to is an actual “physical” Kingdom of God in the material world, a sociopolitical system. I am referring to a new government and a new society.

    Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
     
  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    That almost all of your posts seem geared toward either convincing people that aspects of your religion are true or overcoming objections to your religion.
     
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  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It might seem that way to you, but that is not what my motives are. I have a responsibility to make known the message of Baha'u'llah, but I have no responsibility to convince anyone that it is true.

    I do not care if other people believe in my religion. I bear no responsibility for what other people believe. Baha'u'llah wrote that everyone is responsible for their own beliefs.

    Sure, I will correct false information posted about my religion because that is my responsibility, but I am not trying to overcome objections to my religion. I do care if anyone objects to my religion, but if they object they should be objecting to what the religion really teaches, not to false information some people post about it.
     
    #434 Trailblazer, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  15. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I think Bible is more about spiritual Kingdom. That is why I find it not good, if people try to build something else, all though when Jesus returns, it may be manifested physically.
     
  16. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Here some verses from Judges chapter 7 where it says the "Lord" spoke to Gideon. In this story Gideon was chosen to lead an army into battle to kill all the Midianites. the Israelites were outnumbered, but the Lord keeps reducing the size of Gideon's army:

    The Lord said to Gideon, “You have too many men. I cannot deliver Midian into their hands... 3 Now announce to the army, ‘Anyone who trembles with fear may turn back and leave Mount Gilead. So twenty-two thousand men left, while ten thousand remained. 4 But the Lord said to Gideon, “There are still too many men. Take them down to the water, and I will thin them out for you there...
    6 Three hundred of them drank from cupped hands, lapping like dogs. All the rest got down on their knees to drink.
    7 The Lord said to Gideon, “With the three hundred men that lapped I will save you and give the Midianites into your hands. Let all the others go home. ​

    This is pretty typical of Bible stories to say things like "the Lord said" or to have an "angel of the Lord" appear and say something. But, it is only with a chosen few. However, they aren't manifestations, and in this case not even a prophet. Gideon was chosen to lead a battle. Great stories. Inspiring stories of the God of Israel helping them defeat their enemies. But, if angels don't appear and God doesn't speak, then that makes these stories nothing but legends and myths. I'm okay with that. Is something like that the "official" Baha'i interpretation also?
     
  17. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    He only talks to passive believers.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You are correct. The New Testament is about a spiritual kingdom, but in the Old Testament the prophecies that refer to the Messiah talk about a physical kingdom that will be established on earth:

    Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    Jesus never promised to return to earth.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

    Then in the next chapter you have these verses:

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    These two verses negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I agree these are only stories, not anything that God actually said or did. Some of the official Bahai positions on the Bible indicate that what I believe is correct.

    From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

    ...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
    (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

    ...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
    (23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

    When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
    (11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

    We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
    (4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

    Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
    (31 January 1955 to an individual believer)

    From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice:

    The interpretation of biblical prophecies has long been the subject of controversy and speculation among religious scholars. As Bahá'ís, we know that we must turn to the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi for authoritative guidance in these matters. When a subject has not been mentioned or explained in the Sacred Writings, we are free to consult other books and to consider the opinions of scholars if we wish to do so.

    In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
    (28 May 1984 to an individual believer)

    ...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words.
    (9 August 1984 to an individual believer)


    The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
     
  20. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    That seems to be wrong interpretation.

    I think that is not true, because for example:


    I tell you that he will avenge them quickly. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

    Luke 18:8
     
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