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Featured Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes, it is good to know religious history. As I told you once, I was never very interested in religion so I never studied it, and I only knew the basics of the Baha’i Faith until the last five years when I got serious about it. Then I had to play catch up, so I really have not had the time to study other religions. I know the basics of Christianity but not much about Islam, and I think that is the most important religion I need to know about, since Baha’i had its roots there. I am going to read a book entitled “Muhammad and the Course of Islam” as soon as I finish another book I am reading.
    God never changes but what God wants changes according to what humanity needs.The Prophets of God are the Divine Physicians who administer the remedy we need in every age.

    “No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy? In like manner, every time the Prophets of God have illumined the world with the resplendent radiance of the Day Star of Divine knowledge, they have invariably summoned its peoples to embrace the light of God through such means as best befitted the exigencies of the age in which they appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

    You might not “see” civilization advancing, but it is advancing nevertheless, through fits and starts. One has to look at the primary message the Messenger brought and how that affected society as a whole, not just at the laws. Those laws had to be specific to what was going on at the time, and the people Muhammad came to were a very backward and depraved people; some were idol worshippers and some buried their infant daughters alive, so harsh laws were necessary. Here is a chapter I often cite that explains the big picture:

    “The Revelation associated with the Faith of Jesus Christfocused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. When Jesus spoke to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity. The whole surface of the earth was as yet unexplored, and the organization of all its peoples and nations as one unit could, consequently, not be envisaged, how much less proclaimed or established. What other interpretation can be given to these words, addressed specifically by Bahá’u’lláh to the followers of the Gospel, in which the fundamental distinction between the Mission of Jesus Christ, concerning primarily the individual, and His own Message, directed more particularly to mankind as a whole, has been definitely established: “Verily, He [Jesus] said: ‘Come ye after Me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.’ In this day, however, We say: ‘Come ye after Me, that We may make you to become the quickeners of mankind.’” The Promised Day is Come, pp. 119-120

    The Faith of Islám, the succeeding link in the chain of Divine Revelation, introduced, as Bahá’u’lláh Himself testifies, the conception of the nation as a unit and a vital stage in the organization of human society, and embodied it in its teaching. This indeed is what is meant by this brief yet highly significant and illuminating pronouncement of Bahá’u’lláh: “Of old [Islamic Dispensation] it hath been revealed: ‘Love of one’s country is an element of the Faith of God.’” This principle was established and stressed by the Apostle of God, inasmuch as the evolution of human society required it at that time. Nor could any stage above and beyond it have been envisaged, as world conditions preliminary to the establishment of a superior form of organization were as yet unobtainable. The conception of nationality, the attainment to the state of nationhood, may, therefore, be said to be the distinguishing characteristics of the Muḥammadan Dispensation, in the course of which the nations and races of the world, and particularly in Europe and America, were unified and achieved political independence.

    “One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur inthe Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”
    The Promised Day is Come, p. 121

    From: Religion and Social Evolution, pp. 119-121
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    But you are looking at those older religions constantly, Christianity in particular. You say that you are not confused, but rather just skeptical, but it seems to me that you are skeptical because you are confused, or at the very least you cannot understand how all these religions can be true.

    It is really not that complicated if you understand that the beliefs and practices of these religions contradict each other because of what man did to change them after they were revealed by God through a Messenger.

    These originally revealed religions are like a clear pristine lakein the wilderness at the time of revelation, but after humans have been swimming around in the scriptures for centuries, they become like dirty water in a lake, even polluted. So the original message that God sought to convey can no longer be seen through the dirty water. It is then that religions have become mankind's creation. That is why they need to renewed by a new revelation, which is like rain pouring down from heaven, depositing fresh water into the lake.

    All the religions that were revealed by God contain spiritual guidance and teachings that endure through history for the spiritual guidance of humanity, but the ancient religions lack original scripture, and have been subject to highly variable interpretation of the many divisions over time. How then can they be reconciled to one another?

    No, it does not mean that none of the religions made sense before the Baha’i Faith came along. The older religions made sense as standalones, each in its own little cubbyhole, but they could never be reconciled with the other religions or as part of a whole because they were not understood as part of one unfolding process of revelation from God to man. Rather, the followers of each religion adheres to the belief that they have the last revelation from God and the best, and the only Truth from God. Islam and Baha’i are the notable exceptions, because at least Islam recognizes the Messengers that preceded Muhammad, although it still adheres to the belief that Muhammad is the best and the final Prophet, so in that way it is different from Baha’i that teaches that there will be more Messengers sent by God throughout all of eternity.
    The Baha’i Faith does not interpret all the other religions to “fit” with Baha’i. The Baha’i writings do not even address any religions other than Judaism, Christianity and Islam, mostly Christianity because it is the religion that has strayed the furthest from the original teachings of the Messenger. It was necessary for Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha to explain the Baha’i beliefs about the Bible Christianity and the Bible, since Baha’u’llah was the fulfillment of Christianity, the return of Christ.

    The answer is simple. All the older religions are the Truth, and their eternal spiritual verities are the same if you look closely at them. All religions teach faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy... It is the social teachings and laws that change over time and the message that is pertinent to the present time also changes.

    When I say message I mean what constituted the primary mission of that Messenger, what they came to do. Jesus Christ focused primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressedthe necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. Islam introducedthe conception of the nation as a unit and a vital stage in the organization of human society. Baha’u’llah taught that all nations will be gathered together and will become a single nation and that religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. Eventually, all men will adhere to one religion, will be blended into one race, and become a single people.
    The Baha’i Faith would not try to reconcile philosophies of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, and Chinese into religion, because they came from a different source; the came from men, not Messengers of God. That does not mean philosophies do not have truth value, many certainly do.

    AGAIN, Baha’i is not trying to reconcile the major religions into the Baha’i system. It recognizes them as all unique and pertinent to their own historical times.

    “In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.” God Passes By, p. 100
     
  3. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    He most certainly did.

    I thought you people obeyed the laws of the lands which you live in!!!
    They didn't!
    Truth Time!

    ^^^^^ Just look at what you wrote!
    What do you think would happen if you got near enough to any World leader today and fired even a blank starting pistol......... But they were attempting to kill, with a weapon.

    They broke the laws of Islam and Persia.
    I thought you are supposed to obey country's laws?

    Double Think....


    I expect that attempted assassins in Persia in the early 19th century had a very bad time. A deterrent to others?

    Befotre that time they murdered kings more horribly than that!


    Many of his laws of which even Bahauallah needed to 'squelch'.... true?

    Oh no.......... I never picked a side, nor joined with any others. I just see through it all. Objectively!

    The Babis were law breakers! Enough........

    I hope some Christians read that! I will leave that for Christians to answer, if they wish.

    I clicked on your link, and in front of me was Shogi Effendi's account of the Bab's execution. I glanced through it briefly.

    I had to smile as I read about how Storms broke out, and Earthquakes shook all around as the Bab died....... I have to say that Bahais do seem to be competing with Jesus for miracles at such a time. :p

    But there are more....... and not just how the Bab disappeared in the black-powder cloud at the first attempt only to be found dictating to his secretary in his cell. Those horrid Muslims let him have a secretary in his cell, did they? Anyway, another miracle!

    But the best miracles were overlooked. Was it ten thousand people witnessed the execution, after clambering onto roof tops around the execution area? And three ranks of 250 riflemen in each?

    How big was the execution area? Look............ 250 soldiers need about 36" each to aim and fire a black powder rifle, much more than their 24" body width. So you need to figure out how ONE RANK of soldiers was filed, because you've got 250 YARDS of soldiers to form into files.

    And when you've succeeded at that you've got to do it all over again TWICE!

    So you've got to figure out how the Officers actually lined up 750 SOLDIERS to shoot at one two targets with black powder rifles. Such rifles are quite accurate, that's no problem, it's just a matter of how you form up your firing squad.

    I've no doubt that 750 soldiers were paraded to observe the execution, as witnesses.......... but the actual firing squad ........ Well, I'll leave that for any members with a military or shooting background to comment upon.

    It would make a very good thread, actually....... more for interested shots than Bahai detractors, those evil people! By the way, I notice how both Shogi and the Bab wrote about Evil and Hell....... I thought Bahais denied such existences?
     
  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    So Christians wrote what ended up in the NT. Christian leaders decided which books got included in the NT. Later, Christian leaders came up with doctrines based on their interpretation of the NT.

    Baha'is say that the interpretation is wrong. Did the leaders get it right on which books got included? Did the Christians that wrote the books get it right? Baha'is say no to this also. The main thing they got wrong, according to Baha'is, is the resurrection story.

    So what important truths did Christians really get right? That's why I keep saying that if the Baha'is are right, Christians never, ever had the truth.
     
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  5. we-live-now

    we-live-now Active Member

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    What if the voice that all of us "hear" inside that gives us the words we speak and causes us to move is God? All would hear it and without it no one could utter a word nor move a muscle.

    For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you Matt 10:10

    "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing John 15:5


    I see "The vine" is the source of life for all, the "one, single life". Without this vine of life called "me" (emoi) no one could move a muscle.

    Does one truly realize what they are truly saying every time they say "I AM" (going to do this or that)????? They are invoking the very words and being of God.

     
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  6. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think Bible is perfect. The contradictions people see, are in their interpretations and own ideas.

    What more we need?

    How do you know what God intended?
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It is true that the inaction or the movement of man depends upon the assistance of God so if man is not aided, he is not able to do anything at all. If God’s help is cut off, man remains absolutely helpless. This condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do not know anything about which books got included in the Bible and there is no official Baha’i position on this.

    If the resurrection story was intended to be interpreted literally, Christians that wrote the books did not get it right.

    Christian leaders came up with doctrines based on their interpretation of the NT and these doctrines (such as the doctrine of original sin, and there are other)are considered false by Baha’is.

    The Baha’i position is that the Christians leaders misconstrued the meaning of the Gospel message. George Townshend explained it better than I can.

    Chapter Four: THE FALSE PROPHETS

    As Jesus prophesied, the false prophets contrived to change the essential meaning of the Gospel so that it became quite different from that which the Bible recorded or Jesus taught. (Matt. Vii 15-23 and see pp. 11, 12).

    It has long been generally believed that Jesus Christ was a unique incarnation of God such as had never before appeared in religious history and would never appear again. This tenet made the acceptance of any later Prophet impossible to a Christian. Yet there is nothing in Christ’s own statements, as recorded in the Gospel, to support this view, and it was not generally held during His lifetime.

    Jesus emphatically claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but continually differentiated Himself from the Father. In many such references as “Him that sent me,” “my Father is greater than I,” (John xiv 28). “I go to the Father,” (John xvi 16). “I will pray the Father,” (John xiv 16). “I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me,” (John vii 28). He made this abundantly clear, and even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son. “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” (Mark xiii 32). He referred to Himself as the Son, and as a Prophet, (Matt. Xiii 57, Luke xiii 33) and was so regarded, (Matt. xxi 11, Luke vii 16) and related His Mission to those of Moses and Abraham before Him, and to others to come after Him, specifically “he, the Spirit of truth, “who would reveal the things which Jesus did not. (John xvi 12,13).

    The followers of every world religion have invented for themselves a similar belief in the uniqueness and finality of their own Prophet. The result has been that no religion has acknowledged a Prophet of a later religion. The Hindus do not acknowledge Buddha, the Buddhists to not acknowledge Christ, nor yet do the Zoroastrians. The result of this delusive belief has been that the world religions have not tended to the unifying of mankind but rather to its further division.

    Another opinion which Christians universally hold about Christ is that His teaching was absolute and final. They believe that if the Truth were partly withheld from them for a time because they could not bear it, it was divulged at Pentecost in its fullness and that now nothing remains to be revealed. But there is nothing in the account of Pentecost to suggest such an interpretation and there is no one who will believe that Jesus would have named the false prophets as characteristic of His age if this warning was to be followed by an immediate release of all Truth to the Church. What the Bible shows is rather a succession of teachers—Abraham, Moses and Christ, each measuring His Revelation to the needs and maturity of His authors: Jesus, for example, changes the divorce law and says, “Moses gave you this because of the hardness of your hearts but from the beginning it was not so.” Many times He says, Ye have heard it said by them of old time . . . but I say unto you . . .”

    Another universal opinion among the Christians is that Christ was the Lord of Hosts of the Old Testament. Yet the Jewish Prophets had foretold that when the Lord of Hosts came He would not find the Jews in the Holy Land, all would have been scattered among the nations and would have been living in misery and degradation for centuries; but when Jesus came Palestine was full of Jews and their expulsion did not begin until the year 70 A.D.; it may be said to have continued till the year 1844.

    To confirm orthodox Christian opinion it is customary in all churches to read on Christmas morning, as if it referred to Jesus, the passage which Isaiah wrote about the Lord of Hosts (Isaiah ix 6-7).

    “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

    Yet the descriptive titles given do not belong exclusively to Christ, while some of them He specifically repudiated as if to make such a mistaken reference to Himself impossible. He disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God;” (John v 18-47)where Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God, disclaimed being the Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I;” (John xviii 36) and being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword.” (Matt. x 34). He disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder or that it would be His judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” (John xviii 36).

    Many of these false interpretations involve repudiation of the Word of God in favor of the word of man. This impious act is so craftily performed, with such an air of humility, that it might escape the notice of the most sincere and devout of worshippers. Probably few churchgoers realize today that the Gospel of Christ as known to the few in the pulpit is wholly different from the Gospel which Christ preached in Galilee as recorded in the Bible.

    In spite of Christ’s promise of further revelation of Truth, through the Comforter, through His own return, through the Spirit of Truth, the Christian Church regards His revelation as final, and itself as the sole trustee of true religion. There is no room for the Supreme Redeemer of the Bible to bring in great changes for the establishment of the Kingdom of God. In fact this Kingdom is often described as a world-wide Church.

    Having thus closed God’s Covenant with the Bible, sacred history—God-directed—came to an end, and secular history, having no sense of divine destiny nor unity, began.

    Jesus’ revelation was purely spiritual. He taught that “My kingdom is not of this world” and that the “Kingdom of heaven is within you.” His great gift to man was the knowledge of eternal life. He told men that they might be physically in perfect health and yet spiritually sick or even dead. But this was a difficult truth to communicate and Jesus had to help men to realize it. He would say that He was a spiritual physician and that men whom He cured of a spiritual disability were cured of blindness, deafness, lameness, leprosy and so on. This was the real meaning of His remark at the end of a discourse, “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” For a hearer might hear the physical word of Jesus and yet fail to comprehend the spiritual meaning. Jesus, in other words, was forever trying to heal spiritual infirmities. He thus would be understood by His disciples as a healer of spiritual ailments but by others He might be taken as relieving physical ills only.

    Doubtless Jesus could, and often did, heal bodily ills by spiritual means, but this was nothing to do with His real work as a Redeemer. On the other handthese spiritual cures which he effected might be misinterpreted as physical miracles, and so were little stressed by Him. (“See that no man know it.” Matt ix 30.

    Christ’s spiritual mission was, at an early date, materialized, specifically in regard to such things as the miracles, curing the blind and deaf, raising the dead. Even His own resurrection was made physical, missing the point entirely. Moreover, none of the complex order, of the ceremonies, rituals and litanies of the Church can be attributed to Christ. All are man-made, by inference or invention.

    Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

    To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.

    (George Townshend, Christ and Baha'u'llah, pp. 25-30)


    To read the book: Christ and Baha'u'llah
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I agree. Verses only appear to contradict one another because of the various interpretations but if one understands the overall Gospel message then they can understand what the individual verses mean.
    “The whole earth,” writes Baha’u’llah, “is now in a state of pregnancy. The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits, when from it will have sprung forth the loftiest trees, the most enchanting blossoms, the most heavenly blessings. Immeasurably exalted is the breeze that wafteth from the garment of thy Lord, the Glorified! For lo, it hath breathed its fragrance and made all things new! Well is it with them that comprehend.”
    Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 168.

    We need a New World Order, which Jesus referred to as the Kingdom of God on earth. Baha’u’llah brought the blue-print instructions for us to build a New World Order.

    “This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

    Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7
    I know God planned to reveal more truth because of what Jesus said:

    John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    I also know because God revealed to Baha’u’llah that God would send Messengers throughout all eternity, whenever humanity was in need of a new message.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    @ Bird123

    With all due respect, I do not believe anyone has direct access to God and I do not believe that God communicates to anyone directly. I also do not believe that anyone can know how God works or what God is doing at any time. God is completely unknowable except for His Attributes that are reflected in His creation and in His Messengers. That said, it is possible that God is working on multiple levels with multiple views, but no human can ever know how God works.

    I hope we can just agree to disagree on that because I am not going to change my position and I do not like to argue.

    I agree that atheists are also children of God, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he is an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds His light upon him.

    I do not believe there can ever be any direct intercourse between God and His creation, except between God and His Messengers.

    “And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67


    We can pray to God but we are not going to get any answers in the form of communication from God.Moreover, since everything that happens is God’s Will, we can assume that whatever happens as the result of our prayer is the Will of God, and since God knows what is best for us, we should resign ourselves to our fate.

    Again, I hope we can agree to disagree. I believe that religions are established by God through Messengers in every age, and that belief is rock solid. God’s is reflected in His Creation, but revealed religion is mankind’s only way to know the Attributes and the will of God.

    What you said does not make any logical sense, because first you would have to explain how all the Great Messengers of God such as Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were able to do what they did, and second, you would have to explain where all the scriptures originated.

    It seems kind of odd to me that you think God that can communicate to everyone - except the Messengers of God. If that was true, there would not be any atheists. Moreover, you have no evidence that indicates that God ever communicated to you, whereas the Messengers of God have evidence in the form of a mission they accomplished as well as scriptures and a religion that was established as the result of their coming. How do you explain all that away? History cannot be denied.

    “What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

    For the first time in the history of religion we have the Original Writings of the Messenger of God, Baha’u’llah. They have been very painstakingly translated from Persian and Arabic into English in order to retain the meaning and there is only one authoritative translation.There are many Writings, but the gist of the revelation is in Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, which is excerpts from various Tablets. It is organized into five parts. Part one, proclaims this as the “Day of God.” Part two, concerns the Manifestation of God and His significance. Part three, deals with basic questions concerning the soul and its immortality. Part four, concerns the spiritual aspects of the World Order and the Most Great Peace. Part five, deals with the duties of the individual and the spiritual meaning of life. Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power.

    I am willing to meet you halfway and admit that we can learn from living in God’s creation, but the caveat is that most people need Guidance and that is one reason why Messengers are sent by God. In this new Dispensation, Baha’u’llah has also brought the blue-print instructions by which peace and tranquility can be established. These are the instructions humankind needs to build the Kingdom of God on earth.

    “God’s purpose in sending His Prophets unto men is twofold. The first is to liberate the children of men from the darkness of ignorance, and guide them to the light of true understanding. The second is to ensure the peace and tranquillity of mankind, and provide all the means by which they can be established.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 79-80

    I believe that what we see are human actions because I believe that God has given us free will to act. I do not believe that God interferes with free will; although in some cases God might override a free will choice we wanted to make, we cannot ever know if or when God does so.

    I certainly do not accept what others tell me about God’s actions, not even the Messengers of God, since the Messenger does not tell me anything about God’s actions, since they cannot be known. The only thing we can know is that God sends messenger in every age. Other than that, God’s actions are completely unknowable.

    Of course they say they are speaking for God, but we should not believe that unless we thoroughly check out that claim and what supports it.

    I do not know what you mean by mere ants. I do not know what you mean by God’s action and how you think that manifests in the world. I do not know why you think that what you see is the result of God’s action and not human action.

    I was not implying that atheists live for self. Some do and some don’t. The same applies to religious believers. Anyone can be selfish and of course there are degrees of selfishness. However, the caveat is that there is no reason to sacrifice self if there is nothing greater than self to sacrifice to. That does not mean that atheists do not sacrifice for other people or for their principles.

    I have a pretty good idea what makes atheists decide to be atheists because I been posting to atheists on various forums daily for about four years. Most say they do not believe in God because there is no evidence that God exists. A few say God does not make sense especially given all the suffering in the world. I very often sympathize with the latter view. What do you think? Is all the undeniable suffering in the world part of God's action you have been watching and studying? That does not seem like a God I would want to believe in.

    How do you know what God is doing? How do you know God’s goal is not peace, because you do not see it unfolding? Goals take time given they involve humans who move ever so slowly in changing their behaviors.

    You are correct. Some truths are constant. However, mankind and especially the world in which he lives, change over time, and that is why we need new Truth from God in every new age.

    John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    Baha’u’llah was the Spirit of truth.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I am more intelligent than you. I formed the universe out of nothing.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe this is incorrect. Humans were created perfect.

    I believe that is also incorrect. The world was made to perfection.

    I believe this is blasphemy attributing to God that which He does not do.

    I believe your conclusion is wrong because your premises are wrong.

    I believe I am a firm believer in logic which is why I can show yours fails.

    I believe a person who calls good, evil is actually the evil one.

    I believe deciding on a religion based upon false beliefs does not help you in any way.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is due to your lack of understanding. I believe you believe in yourself because you understand yourself but you don't believe the prophets because you don't understand God.
     
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  14. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Yes, and I'm sat here watching the pigs fly passed my window.
     
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  15. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I think kingdom of God is not built by men.
     
  16. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I ACTUALLY hit a character limit warning in my posts :p

    God talks to me. You have a Cliff Notes version of some tablets your guy wrote. See how this works?

    In between manifestations, where is He?

    If he was a better teacher, his apostles would've been more obedient. Clearly, he didn't make much of an impression. It's sad because the Way is actually fairly decent.

    Ah. That explains why you dismiss me. I don't have a penis.

    Didn't know God was fearful of vaginas. Then again, He seems to dump Asherah pretty quickly.

    Technology can show that ancient Egyptians chipped out the Book of the Dead in pyramids. Does that make it true?

    People are capable of more than many give them credit for.

    If God doesn't need us and doesn't want to interact with us, what's the point of being impressed with Him?

    Being able but unwilling makes one lazy.

    I've noticed that many messengers have God being no more creative than most people at the time.

    Biblical people love to claim that God was love because widows were taken care of (officially, not with any evidence, of course). God never seems to realize that widows wouldn't need handouts if they had full civil rights. Egypt did it, more or less, so it was doable in ancient times. God, at least in the bible, hands in a C paper and tries to brag about how awesome it is. Very orange US turd-like, except our idiot can't hand in anything higher than a high F.

    LOL, why not?

    So it IS about getting followers. A true messenger would only care if the events are unfolding, not whether they join your specific group.

    Why trust other people when they aren't the superhuman you assume messengers to be? You claim they are biologically different and special in some way. Like, I'm an RN. In healthcare, at least everywhere I've worked, an RN needs to be present 24 hours a day. If I'm off, another one must be there. A workplace can't just wait. I can trust LPN's all day long but only I have certain abilities legal or medical. Life is a 24/7 job and so many religions just want God to clock in whenever He feels the whim for it. That's not how life works.

    The bible claims to be the "original".

    Bull. "Messengers" choose such time limits because they and their followers will be long dead before they realize what happened.

    Your guy was executed after imprisonment, yes? It's like when Jesus said people who call others "fools" will burn in hell, forgetting he called people fools. Messengers shouldn't make judgments they aren't willing to suffer from themselves.

    Not according to his own logic. See above.

    And that wouldn't be Random Guy #547.

    But God uses disguises, a meat costume. Scooby Doo might see through it, but most people won't.

    I've tried. I know it doesn't work. There is no such thing as free will, only will, because I can sense destiny and trying to fight it sucks when you go through all that trouble and it just ends up happening anyway.

    How does belief fix anything? It's so shallow. It's actually the lazy way out. This is why I feel the Way involves both believers and nonbelievers, because it doesn't matter what people believe, only that the job gets done. Many of the world's problems are bigger than Random Guy #Whatever can deal with. It will take "all hands on deck", for the most part. That means teamups and crossovers and whatever it takes to fix it. If Superman and Spider-Man have to team up to fight Kylo Ren, then by all means. :p

    God is responsible for His creations. I just can't comprehend why you feel that shouldn't have to be the case.

    Suffering and death and poverty aren't what people really need, though. If He's going to offer the carrot of an eternity with all that stuff being abolished, He is admitting we shouldn't be experiencing it.

    But why let the Muggles give magic classes?
     
  17. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Again, you can't claim messengers are superhumans and then expect humans to live to the same standard.

    So, no. They have no free will. That's okay. No one does.

    Where is this utopia country where nothing bad happens? I'd like to research it.

    Never trust a book about tires to inform you about the engine.

    But it's not 15k tablets' worth, so you aren't getting the entire message, are you? This is a problem even with our scriptures, where texts are clearly referenced but we don't have them and then we exclaim we have the entire thing even though we clearly don't.

    I'm very imaginative. Try me.

    And you've read all 15K of them? Man, the library must love you. :)

    I've seen you quote some of his stuff. Most of it is the usual I'd expect from anyone even remotely interested in the Way. Not all of it, though. I mean, I'd trust you enough to work with you in a fight against evil, but honestly, I see nothing in your guy that screams "epicness" to me. I try real hard to live up to my own expression of the Way and I know I fail at it sometimes, but I'm also adult enough to accept what's coming my way. I see too many "BBQ Betty" types in terms of messengers, where they are all big and bad up until someone stands up to them, then it's tears for the next five minutes of video about how abused they are.

    Then He is a fickle child who needs to be grounded until He grows up. He can join the adults when He feels over His tantrum.

    Exactly.

    I'm a downtown girl cursed with living in a country-loving hermit family. :p

    Not particularly, if I'm being blunt.

    I hold your guy to the same criticisms as mine.

    Pumpkin, I'm more than happy to criticize my religion when it sucks. Too many people would throw morality under the bus to keep a group identity. This is not the Way. Either morality is vital or it isn't. A believer and a nonbeliever who do something moral are on the same team. Two believers who do something immoral are not on the Way's team.

    I can criticize it quite well just from your posts. Sorry. I guess that's why you weren't made messenger?

    At this point I've given up that anyone will have a complete grasp of the Way, so really there's no point in turning you against your religion as long as you're a good person and treat others with compassion. I don't expect new car performance at a used car lot.

    Were they all superhuman messengers as well? I thought your guy said no messengers for a thousand years.

    To me, any messenger claiming the need for social conformity is automatically suspect. Jesus was slightly better, saying the eye can't tell the hand it's not needed, but his followers never learned that lesson, so whatever.

    Members of all houses fought against the Death Eaters after all, even if some of the Slytherins had be on the DL to do it. :)

    Indeed. Life is not one-size-fits-all and anyone who claims otherwise is lying.

    It's like when you see some new diet fad and "it's the only diet for all of humanity" and forgets about medical conditions like allergies which would make following that diet extremely BAD.

    Hey, Bird123? I don't think we're getting invited to the messenger meetings anymore. :p

    God. You get it from gleanings that aren't even the entire work. You have a couple of pages from a manual and are acting like you've been studying the entire thing for years.

    As I said, some of us are pretty smart and imaginative. Try us.

    Bull. If your guy can sit down and bother with 15k tablets (you never mentioned, I think, how many words fit on a tablet), he can bother with the whole thing. Sounds like he just got writer's cramp and stopped.

    Translation: "Please don't ask me something hard."

    And you're telling me that with all the evil going on all over the globe, we can't pencil in a messenger until several centuries from now? Really?

    I would count Mr Rogers a messenger before some 19th century guy who gives the usual spiel before being executed.

    These two sentences don't belong together.

    Again, BEEP BEEP BEEP goes the irony meter.

    I'm waiting on my cover artist, actually. Sure, it's not 15k tablets, but then again, the Way doesn't need to be so wordy. :p
    Like God, I have a FB page: K. Ley de Fenix

    Irony,
    Oh, Irony,
    How do you
    Get such smiles from me?

    So you don't follow the messenger. How can you say with a straight face that just doing things on your own would be chaotic while boasting of doing things on your own?

    But you trust them to spread the message even though they are clearly not the superhumans needed to spread the message?

    Because life is 24/7 and part-time "godding" just isn't working out for anyone.

    Have you checked the calendar? It's 2018, not the mid 19th century.

    I mean, the only other people I know who fixate on this time period are the people who are mad their ancestors lost a war about slavery. Who gives a rat's butt about the 19th century?

    Messengers tend to make God just as unimaginative as they are and yet scifi writers have helped us get to the moon and such things, like electric light bulbs and cars and stuff.

    If I have a choice between a text that is rather cliche and a mind-blowing prediction of things that end up happening (like Simpsons writers or something), shouldn't I pick the more creative one, especially since it came true?

    The same justification the Romans had in executing Jesus.
     
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  18. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I dived in to Key le de Fenix, and then on to Jessie TR. Wow!
    We want to tell stuff to the World, well I do, or did....... but now I just share ideas with our little dachshunds who are prepared to pay close attention in the hopes of this mug giving them a stinky-beef chew. :D

    You communicate without getting even slightly heated, which I cannot do. I'd like to have that ability but I just haven't got the mindset...... I'm all glued up, I'm afraid.

    @Trailblazer writes:- What one person thinks is Truth could be completely wrong.

    You reply:-
    Irony,
    Oh, Irony,
    How do you
    Get such smiles from me

    I do enjoy your posts..... :)
     
    #418 oldbadger, Jun 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
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  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Who is it built by, God?
    How would God build it? :confused:o_O
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    “O people of God! I admonish you to observe courtesy, for above all else it is the prince of virtues. Well is it with him who is illumined with the light of courtesy and is attired with the vesture of uprightness. Whoso is endued with courtesy hath indeed attained a sublime station. It is hoped that this Wronged One and everyone else may be enabled to acquire it, hold fast unto it, observe it, and fix our gaze upon it. This is a binding command which hath streamed forth from the Pen of the Most Great Name.” (Baha’u’llah, Tablet of the World, p. 88.)

    I won’t be responding to all posts I receive on this thread anymore. If people cannot be courteous, I will not respond. I also will not respond to posts that are facetious or posts that make fun of or denigrate the Messengers of God such as the Bab and Baha’u’llah. I also will not respond to posts that make fun of God, saying that God did not live up to the expectation of humans, or that God did not do His job right, as if an All-Powerful God is answerable to any human being, or as if an All-Knowing God could make any mistakes. This is ludicrous thus it does not warrant a response. Moreover, since I have already responded to posts of this nature, I see no need to repeat myself. I have better things to do with my time than to answer posts that are directly or indirectly insulting me, God or God’s Messengers.

    I do not care if anyone “likes”me or God or my religion. I am not here to win a popularity contest and I do not have to defend an Almighty God or His Messengers. I believe what I believe and that is not subject to change because I have done my due diligence for over 47 years and I know my religion is the Truth from God for this age. I am sorry if my absolute certitude bothers some people, but that is not my fault. Everyone is responsible for their own beliefs or lack thereof because we all have free will.

    I have absolutely no interest in converting anyone to my religion or in convincing anyone that God exists. That is not a job I have been enjoined to do by Baha’u’llah. I am here to share and learn from other people and grow spiritually by interacting with people. Most people on this forum have been very respectful of me and my beliefs even though they do not agree with my beliefs. Why is it that a Christian whose beliefs often conflict with mine can be respectful of my beliefs? Atheists and agnostics on this forum have also been very respectful. It is just a numbered few people who feel a need to criticize others and their beliefs. That is sad for them because there are much better ways to communicate that actually accomplish something.

    Sincerely, Trailblazer
     
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