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Why Does Your God Punish People?

syo

Well-Known Member
Assuming you are a theist who believes that his or her god punishes people, precisely why does your god punish people?
In Orthodox christianity, God is the only and ultimate judge. He punishes people who did evil actions as he judged them. In Orthodoxy, it isn't acceptable for people to judge other people, since all people are born sinners. Our task is to live by God's Laws and leave our actions for God to judge. In orthodoxy, if someone does us wrong, we react guided by God's Laws, because we know God will judge the wrongdoer who caused us suffering, but god will also judge us, how we reacted to the evildoer.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So, He designed animals to be source of food for other animals, but that was not foreseen?

Who said it was not foreseen? The one thing you notice when you study the Bible in depth is that God "acted" only once and that was in the creation itself....and it was perfect......after he had completed his creative works, he stood back and allowed the intelligent creatures that he made to be his representatives here, to show him what they would do as the assigned caretakers. He allowed a long period of time for all scenarios to play out so that we could learn from how we used the free will he gave us. Telling us to obey him was not enough....intelligence demands that we had to learn by experience. So everything after creation is a "reaction" from God in a controlled way, so the lessons would never be lost or forgotten. I see incredible wisdom in that. We aren't created to be robots and I for one value the gift of free will. Don't you? The gift however, becomes a curse when it is abused....we are living in the consequences of that abuse and it's still happening all these thousands of years later....so what have we learned? Regardless of where we live, we are all involved in this lesson.

So logically, there is a reason why God allowed certain animals, including humans to become carnivores and omnivores after the flood of Noah's day. Perhaps a change in diet was necessary for reasons we haven't figured out yet? He did not tell us why. But isn't it strange how smart humans have become in just a hundred years or so? In fact in the last 70 years we figured out how to obliterate all life on this planet. What an amazing use of our intelligence!

The Creator does not always tell us his reasons, but we trust that he knows what he is doing, better than we can. We can also trust that humans in their great recently acquired knowledge and it's accompanying egotism, will assume that they know better. There is a reason for everything the Creator does and when you get to know him and how he works through his purpose, you can see a much bigger picture than your very narrow, purely material vision allows.

That is obviously logically incoherent. So, when Jesus comes back, we all be vegetarians again? The lion and all? I wonder what carrots and lettuce think about it.

Your limited understanding is logically incoherent IMO.
In the promised new world, when every vestige of this failed one is swept away, (because God is absent from it) all will return to the way it was meant to be.....with lessons learned and precedents set for all time to come. It's genius actually. By our choices we determine our own destiny and the Creator will not interfere with our choices....they are ours to make of our own free will.

Oh....and the last time I checked, carrots and lettuce don't 'think'.

Of course I do that. To look for flaws.It is my job. Even the most beautiful theorem, that can take pages and pages of beauty, can be safely tossed in the trash bin if it has even the tiniest flaw.

It amuses me the number of times that the evolutionary science promoters will accuse me of not understanding the things I criticise, but then they do exactly the same when dissing the Creator. And I'm sorry but the flaws in macro-evolution are so huge you could drive a Mack Truck through them....if what you say is true, the whole theory should have been in the trash decades ago.

And honestly, if I had His power, I would have done much better. Easily.

Of course you would....and the world would be so much better than it is now.....after all, look what science has accomplished!!? We are facing another mass extinction....and its us!....we did it all by ourselves, aided and abetted by science...so easily you could have done a better job. The world we have now is the one humans thought they could do better without God.....you have so much to be proud of......
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Who said it was not foreseen? The one thing you notice when you study the Bible in depth is that God "acted" only once and that was in the creation itself....and it was perfect......after he had completed his creative works, he stood back and allowed the intelligent creatures that he made to be his representatives here, to show him what they would do as the assigned caretakers. He allowed a long period of time for all scenarios to play out so that we could learn from how we used the free will he gave us. Telling us to obey him was not enough....intelligence demands that we had to learn by experience. So everything after creation is a "reaction" from God in a controlled way, so the lessons would never be lost or forgotten. I see incredible wisdom in that. We aren't created to be robots and I for one value the gift of free will. Don't you? The gift however, becomes a curse when it is abused....we are living in the consequences of that abuse and it's still happening all these thousands of years later....so what have we learned? Regardless of where we live, we are all involved in this lesson.

So logically, there is a reason why God allowed certain animals, including humans to become carnivores and omnivores after the flood of Noah's day. Perhaps a change in diet was necessary for reasons we haven't figured out yet? He did not tell us why. But isn't it strange how smart humans have become in just a hundred years or so? In fact in the last 70 years we figured out how to obliterate all life on this planet. What an amazing use of our intelligence!

The Creator does not always tell us his reasons, but we trust that he knows what he is doing, better than we can. We can also trust that humans in their great recently acquired knowledge and it's accompanying egotism, will assume that they know better. There is a reason for everything the Creator does and when you get to know him and how he works through his purpose, you can see a much bigger picture than your very narrow, purely material vision allows.



Your limited understanding is logically incoherent IMO.
In the promised new world, when every vestige of this failed one is swept away, (because God is absent from it) all will return to the way it was meant to be.....with lessons learned and precedents set for all time to come. It's genius actually. By our choices we determine our own destiny and the Creator will not interfere with our choices....they are ours to make of our own free will.

Oh....and the last time I checked, carrots and lettuce don't 'think'.



It amuses me the number of times that the evolutionary science promoters will accuse me of not understanding the things I criticise, but then they do exactly the same when dissing the Creator. And I'm sorry but the flaws in macro-evolution are so huge you could drive a Mack Truck through them....if what you say is true, the whole theory should have been in the trash decades ago.



Of course you would....and the world would be so much better than it is now.....after all, look what science has accomplished!!? We are facing another mass extinction....and its us!....we did it all by ourselves, aided and abetted by science...so easily you could have done a better job. The world we have now is the one humans thought they could do better without God.....you have so much to be proud of......

Amazing though that He reused the design of chimps to create the most important being for Him. Got lazy after a week of stress?

So, what is more likely, that we and chimps, or gorillas, share a common ancestor, or that God is so obsessed with apes to create the most important being, the one He created everything for, the one whose own Son will incarnate into, etc. to look like a .... hairless gorilla?

C’mon. That makes no sense.

Ciao

- viole
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Amazing though that He reused the design of chimps to create the most important being for Him. Got lazy after a week of stress?

So, what is more likely, that we and chimps, or gorillas, share a common ancestor, or that God is so obsessed with apes to create the most important being, the one He created everything for, the one whose own Son will incarnate into, etc. to look like a .... hairless gorilla?

C’mon. That makes no sense.

When you examine the common framework of vertebrates you see a design so superior that it is used for a wide variety of creatures. To assume that all vertebrates have a common ancestor when there is not one iota of proof for it, you can just as easily see a master designer at work. Don’t architects use engineering to design a variety of buildings using the same principles? God is the great architect of all things. His existence answers all the hard questions. It fills in all the gaps.

When you know he exists, it answers all the questions that science can only offer guesses for. The most important question of all is not why we resemble apes, but where did life come from. Can science answer this? No! Because abiogenesis makes evolutionists nervous. I can understand why.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
When you examine the common framework of vertebrates you see a design so superior that it is used for a wide variety of creatures. To assume that all vertebrates have a common ancestor when there is not one iota of proof for it, you can just as easily see a master designer at work. Don’t architects use engineering to design a variety of buildings using the same principles? God is the great architect of all things. His existence answers all the hard questions. It fills in all the gaps.

When you know he exists, it answers all the questions that science can only offer guesses for. The most important question of all is not why we resemble apes, but where did life come from. Can science answer this? No! Because abiogenesis makes evolutionists nervous. I can understand why.
God screwed up badly if it created humans, it has nothing of which to be proud.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
When you examine the common framework of vertebrates you see a design so superior that it is used for a wide variety of creatures. To assume that all vertebrates have a common ancestor when there is not one iota of proof for it, you can just as easily see a master designer at work. Don’t architects use engineering to design a variety of buildings using the same principles? God is the great architect of all things. His existence answers all the hard questions. It fills in all the gaps.

When you know he exists, it answers all the questions that science can only offer guesses for. The most important question of all is not why we resemble apes, but where did life come from. Can science answer this? No! Because abiogenesis makes evolutionists nervous. I can understand why.

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution. Actually, confusing the two is a sign of suboptimal education in that area. To put it mildly :)

It is like saying that people studying stellar evolution are nervous because we do not have all answers concerning the “birth” of the Universe. They are not nervous at all, since they are two different disciplines with different premises. And since evolution has the premise of pre-existing life, it is clear that evolutionary biologists cannot be nervous at all. Also because all evidence points towards a common origin. Where this origin comes from is not clear, but it does not concern them as all.

So, the logical conclusion is that you, like most creationists, like to pontificate about science, evidence and such, without knowing the subject.

It would be like talking of medieval chinese theater, when I am perfectly aware that I have no clue about medieval chinese theater.

Ciao

- viole
 

Snickerdoodle

New Member
So abiogenesis is a problem to be worked out by athiestic evolution? The beginning of time, space, and matter started with the Big Bang as the most common theory of beginnings. Matter then evolved from stellar dust to earth to various minerals to plants to animals and then to man as one of multiple paths. The problem of Abiogenesis is then a link in the evolution process of matter between non-life and life.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Personally I see we are allowed our choices by God. They are our reward or punishment.

I see it is only One God.

Regards Tony
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Now let's take it to the 10th or so generation. By now, you've had 10,000 evil men giving birth to 10,000 offspring and together those 20,000 evil men and/or women murder 200,000 people total. So, you now have 20,000 evil men and women in hell (vs. 100 if you had judged and executed them earlier), plus 200,000 other dead people.
Very nice argument. It says the children of evil people are always evil?
The smartest thing God did was to send prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis who would con the ignorant people he created into worshiping him, thus perpetuating his kingdom.
Can science answer this? No! Because abiogenesis makes evolutionists nervous. I can understand why.
Yes, science can, though not completely. We know it is through RNA/DNA chain. If you understood that, you would not have said that.
And since evolution has the premise of pre-existing life, it is clear that evolutionary biologists cannot be nervous at all. Also because all evidence points towards a common origin. Where this origin comes from is not clear, but it does not concern them as all.
I do not think all in science will agree to that. Though life-building molecules are very common in space, its manufacture also may be common place, i.e., everywhere, even here on earth (and there are trillions upon trillions of stars and planets).
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Assuming you are a theist who believes that his or her god punishes people, precisely why does your god punish people?

......

By the way, to assert that your god punishes people because they "deserve" or "warrant" being punished strikes me as a cop-out, a superficial and shallow response, for it fails by itself to address the question, but only appears to do so.

That is to say, stating that a person deserves or warrants being punished for something does not in and of itself explain by what cause or reason does deserving or warranting punishment for something mean one should be punished for it.

You can perhaps more easily see the point if you consider a non-traditional example of such a statement. e.g. "Jones deserves to be fined for inflating a party balloon". That non-traditional example, I believe, makes clear that merely saying someone deserves or warrants a punishment for something does not by itself explain why they deserve or warrant to be punished for it.
Gods in polytheist religions typically only punish people who have committed evil acts (like murder) or violated a strong taboo (like offering human flesh to the Olympian gods as human sacrifice was hugely offensive in ancient Greece and Rome). Pantheons of more advanced cultures tend to include deities of law and order and most in general tend to include deities of retribution. So, yes. I do believe in deities that punish just as there's human law enforcement that punish criminals. As above, so below.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
God disciplines his children for the same reason a loving parent disciplines his children. The motivation is love and to help us grow and mature.

Without trying to derail, isn't it hard for a theist to know what is 'discipline' and what is just 'stuff happens'?
And also, trying to reconcile who is punished with who is not?
Assuming (just for expediency) that these are difficult things to know, would God making his disciplines and judgements more clear also means we were more able to grow and mature?

I mean, I try to be as explicit as possible with my children when I am disciplining them as to exactly what the problematic behaviour was, and why I chose a certain severity of punishment. It helps them learn what I see as poor behaviour, and what I don't. For example, I might punish my children for questioning an adult (let's say they were rude, and aggressive), but it would be nothing to do with them challenging the adults opinion, or disagreeing with their point. If I was lax in my punishment, they might misconstrue my intent, and decide they should never question an adult, when all I was looking to do was teach them how an adult conversation and debate functions exactly so they COULD speak up more effectively.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Gods in polytheist religions typically only punish people who have committed evil acts (like murder) or violated a strong taboo (like offering human flesh to the Olympian gods as human sacrifice was hugely offensive in ancient Greece and Rome).

This one (my question) is definitely a tangent, so feel free to ignore, or PM me on it if you prefer but...
I was surprised by your assertion here.
Athena's punishment of Medusa?
Artemis' punishment of Actaeon?
How Hera dealt with Leto?

Not important for any reason other than my interest. Like I said, no issue if you want to ignore, I'm just curious on your take.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
The smartest thing God did was to send prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis who would con the ignorant people he created into worshiping him, thus perpetuating his kingdom.

Well, you're half right - God created people.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
This one (my question) is definitely a tangent, so feel free to ignore, or PM me on it if you prefer but...
I was surprised by your assertion here.
Athena's punishment of Medusa?
Artemis' punishment of Actaeon?
How Hera dealt with Leto?

Not important for any reason other than my interest. Like I said, no issue if you want to ignore, I'm just curious on your take.
No worries. I don't take myths literally. They're a reflection of the societies that create them. Unfortunately, the ancient Greeks were extremely sexist and so that shows through in their stories (many of which were actually written by poets and playwrights at least partially for entertainment). This is clear in their miserable treatment of Medusa, who is punished for being a rape victim, basically. Same with them typecasting Hera as a jealous nag of a wife who is always trying to punish the women Zeus cheats on her with and any children that result. So when it comes to that, you have to separate the stories from the actual religious sensibilities the people had. The Greeks viewed the gods very reverently and we definitely see their understanding of the gods' characters evolve over time. It is also a good idea to read what the philosophers had to say about the gods over what the stories say as the philosophers were the theologians of their day, if you will.

Anyway, the stories contain sacred truths but the only real way to know the character of the gods is by reason and experience. Myths must be placed in context. Personally I've had my own spiritual experiences with both Zeus and Athena and the petty portrayal of their characters in the earlier myths is light-years away from how they actually are, in my experience. Otherwise, who would worship them? Lol.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Unfortunately, the ancient Greeks were extremely sexist and so that shows through in their stories (many of which were actually written by poets and playwrights at least partially for entertainment).
I would not say just the Greeks. Everywhere, among Hindus too and in Bible.
Lord-Shiva-Mohini.jpg

Mohini Avatara
 
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lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
No worries. I don't take myths literally. They're a reflection of the societies that create them. Unfortunately, the ancient Greeks were extremely sexist and so that shows through in their stories (many of which were actually written by poets and playwrights at least partially for entertainment). This is clear in their miserable treatment of Medusa, who is punished for being a rape victim, basically. Same with them typecasting Hera as a jealous nag of a wife who is always trying to punish the women Zeus cheats on her with and any children that result. So when it comes to that, you have to separate the stories from the actual religious sensibilities the people had. The Greeks viewed the gods very reverently and we definitely see their understanding of the gods' characters evolve over time. It is also a good idea to read what the philosophers had to say about the gods over what the stories say as the philosophers were the theologians of their day, if you will.

Anyway, the stories contain sacred truths but the only real way to know the character of the gods is by reason and experience. Myths must be placed in context. Personally I've had my own spiritual experiences with both Zeus and Athena and the petty portrayal of their characters in the earlier myths is light-years away from how they actually are, in my experience. Otherwise, who would worship them? Lol.

Thanks, that makes sense.
It was kinda funny. I started listing a few clear injustices I could remember, and they were all women punishing mortals in completely arbitrary manners. I get that there would be instances of men doing similar, but (as you said) there is a definite flavour to all this. Meanwhile Zeus raped with abandon, although I daresay the books I read in my youth talked more of lust and ravishing.

When I was a kid, I read a LOT of mythology. I read a little now, but not to the same level. I always loved how human the Greek Gods appeared, right down to their petty jealousies. It made sense to me that Gods like that could beget a species like ours...lol
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Thanks, that makes sense.
It was kinda funny. I started listing a few clear injustices I could remember, and they were all women punishing mortals in completely arbitrary manners. I get that there would be instances of men doing similar, but (as you said) there is a definite flavour to all this. Meanwhile Zeus raped with abandon, although I daresay the books I read in my youth talked more of lust and ravishing.

When I was a kid, I read a LOT of mythology. I read a little now, but not to the same level. I always loved how human the Greek Gods appeared, right down to their petty jealousies. It made sense to me that Gods like that could beget a species like ours...lol
That is definitely one good takeaway from the myths - the ability to relate to the gods and see ourselves in then and vice versa. That may be one of those sacred truths I mentioned. ;) Either way, it's good and healthy to have a sense of humor with your religion. Obviously we find those stories profound and entertaining to this day, so they were doing something right.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Just a clarification on your beliefs, if I can.
Do you believe one creature was designed to be a food source for another?

Not originally...no. But just as God found it necessary to allow humankind to become meat eaters, I believe that some animals were also made to be that way. A change in the environment may have necessitated such a shift away from God's original plan. He simply does not give us a reason.

I don't believe that insects are sentient, so perhaps they were designed to be food for some creatures.....and worms too.....? Whales live on krill, but they are not sentient either. Along with eating meat came the instincts in animals of prey to outrun or to outmaneuver their predators. The hunters had to earn their food....and they only hunted when hunger drove them. Most of their prey are killed humanely.

Some of the strongest and most powerful creatures on earth are herbivores. Perhaps all will return to God's original plan once he has sorted out the human race?

The only creatures designed to eat meat originally I believe, were the carrion creatures...nature's clean up crew.
 
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