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Featured Why Does the Lord Jesus Christ Have An Archangel's Voice?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16
    15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    Why Does the Lord Jesus Christ Have An Archangel's Voice?
    Bonus Question: What do you think is meant by the sound of the trumpet of God?

    Note * Please use scriptures to support your views or suggestions. Thanks.
     
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  2. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    He comes with the trumpet of God but that doesn't mean he's a trumpet
     
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  3. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    It doesn't say He has the voice of an archangel, it says with the voice of an archangel. It seems likely when the Lord descends from heaven He will be accompanied by angels and an archangel may announce His coming as the angels did at His birth in Bethlehem (Luke 2:8-15)
     
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  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Because Elohim (H430) means Archangels, and we've been lied to about the real meanings.

    EL is the Source, and when H is added to the word, like Abram became Abraham, and Sara became Sarah when blessed by God; as H implies God breathed in ancient Hebrew.

    EL (H410) = God the Source of reality.
    Eloh (H433) = a Divine Being made breathed/manifest by EL
    Elohim (H430) = Plural Divine Beings and often referring to the whole Divine Council as One; like Yahavah Elohim is the Archangel who is the Lord of Creation.

    In Isaiah 52:10 which is the first line of Isaiah 53... and In Psalms 98:3 at the start of the Messianic age, we have the terminology Yeshuat Eloheinu, which means the Salvation from our God.

    With the words being Yeshua Elohim; which also implies Yeshua is an Archangel as a representative of God (EL).

    Now since Isaiah 52:13-14 paraphrases David in the Psalms 89:19-21; Yeshua is also a form of David as an Archangel, and now returning in Zechariah 12:8 as the Archangel of the Lord before his people.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I agree.... More specifically with the sound of the trumpet of God, is what it says.

    True, it doesn't say he has. It says he himself will descend with... and yes, he will be accompanied by angels.
    Do you have any scriptures that show that an archangel will announce His coming, or are you willing to settle for may?
    In other words, you are not certain, if it will be the Lord's voice, or an angel's voice, that will shout the command?

    So, you are saying that Yeshua returns as the archangel?
     
  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yes we do.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I was going to say, I'm with you. ;)
     
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  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    What evidence is there that the scripture is saying that Jesus himself calls with his own voice - an archangel's voice.

    There are a few things evident to me, in this text, that helps us see that the archangel's voice is that of our reigning king, Christ Jesus.

    The first line of evidence.
    1. the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command,
    2. with the voice of an archangel, and
    3. with the sound of the trumpet of God.
    4. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    What is the reason for the cry of command, and the sound of the trumpet of God?
    The reason evidently, is to gather those who have fallen asleep in death through Christ. 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 15
    Who is given the power and authority to raise the dead?
    John 5:25-29
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself: 27 and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

    Is it not clear that the voice of the archangel is the Lord Jesus' himself? These texts harmonizes.

    What of the sound of the trumpet of God?
    Trumpets were sounded, to signal various events. One was to gather.
    Numbers 10:5-8
    5 And when ye blow an alarm, the camps that lie on the east side shall take their journey. 6 And when ye blow an alarm the second time, the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys. 7 But when the assembly is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm. 8 And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow the trumpets; and they shall be to you for a statute for ever throughout your generations.

    So it seems reasonable that on this occasion, where the dead are being gathered to heaven, the sound of the trumpet of God, is signifies Jesus gathering the dead saints.

    Jesus alone is given the authority to raise the dead. It is described in terms of calling the dead to life, as was the case with Lazarus.
    John 11:43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice: “Lazarus, come out!”

    Evidently then, Jesus himself sounds the call with his own voice of an archangel.
    There are other lines of evidence.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the word with means accompanied by in this case.

    I believe this verse indicates that Jesus speaks with the Word of God:
    John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

    I believe that means the words come with God's voice as well.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there is no way for God to be an archanagel.
     
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  11. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Premise is ok, argument is bad.
     
    #11 Desert Snake, Feb 12, 2019
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  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    #12 Desert Snake, Feb 12, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Okay. So do you believe that the word "with" should really be "accompanied by", so that the text reads...
    For the Lord himself will descend from heaven accompanied by a cry of command, accompanied by the voice of an archangel, and accompanied by the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    What basis do you have for suggesting this?
    The Greek word ἐν (en) meaning with, or in, carries a different thought to the Greek word σύν (sun) meaning with, or together with, or accompanied by. Act 18:18

    So it seems apparent that the word with, as used at 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is appropriately used to signify something within.
    HELPS Word-studies
    1722 en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition(state) in which something operates from the inside (within).

    This is not the same as σύν, which carries the thought of being together with (expresses association with)
    HELPS Word-studies
    4862 sýn (a primitive preposition, having no known etymology) – properly, identified with, joined close-together in tight identification; with (= closely identified together).

    This text evidently is describing unity, or oneness. This can be seen from John 17
    20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.

    According to scripture, the words of Jesus are clearly in harmony with God's , not only because of that oneness, or unity, but because God gave Jesus the authority to give life. John 5:25-29

    From my understanding, archangel means chief or principal angel - from the Greek ἀρχάγγελος.
    As far as I know, the Bible speaks of only one archangel.
    Jude 9 But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    True, the Bible does not described God as chief angel, although the angels belong to him.
    However, The Bible says Jesus commands and directs the angels - Matthew 16:27,
    Both Michael and Jesus are described as having angels - Revelation 12:7; Matthew 13:41

    What I find interesting also, is that Michael means "Who Is Like God", and Jesus is the one appointed "chief" by God, according to the scripture @Disciple of Jesus mentioned, as well as Matthew 28:17, 18.
    It seems Jesus therefore would fittingly have the voice of an archangel, as it seems to be describing his role in heaven as archangel.
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    I believe that, at first, this role seems plausible. However, overall, Jesus is noted, at least textually, as 'not an angel', as far as I read it. The reason mainly being, the Godhood just isn't described like that, in the 'new testament'. Now...and this gets complicated, even strange, in the book of Galatians, it is noted a distinction between the 'false or added laws', and the normal laws. Now, the 'false laws', are attributed generally to angels, and "angel worship", is condemned by the apostles.[acts of the Apostles.

    Sound familiar?

    So, sure, that's great, however Jesus is called God, and varying by verse, it is 'Jesus's kingdom', as well.
    We know that angels cannot rule the kingdom.
    We are now, at, angels cannot rule the kingdom, and, Jesus is the manifested form of God, the alternative being a disturbing version of shamanic possession. Now, that is the text. What do we determine outside of the textual writings concerning Jesus's manifestation, as a man, in Yisrael. Certainly this can't be an angel, because we don't worship angels, directly, as G-d.
     
    #14 Desert Snake, Feb 12, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  15. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    when the horn is blowed the people were being called to gather. now gather yourself together. those not gathered will be scattered. the idea is the harvest at the end of time and forever begins


    Zephaniah 2
    2 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

    2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you.

    3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.
     
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  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I think though, in order to argue for a Godhead, one has to first prove a Godhead. I don't find any proof of that, so you will have to show it.
    So far, scriptures we looked at, for example, Matthew 28:18 says Jesus received all authority and power. He was given it, and he received it, and we know well, that someone gave him that authority.
    Another scripture quoted was, John 17:20, which showed that Jesus is in union with God, in the same way his disciples were to be in union with them, so that doesn't indicate a Godhead.
    What scriptures to you, prove a Godhead?

    Also, what is an angel, and what reason(s) do you have for exclude Jesus from being such?
    Matthew 18:26 Then the servant fell on his knees before him. 'Have patience with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.'
    Matthew 18:26
    The servant therefore fell down and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

    Matthew 20:20 Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and knelt down to make a request of Him.
    Matthew 20:20
    Then came to him the mother of the sons of Zebedee with her sons, worshipping him , and asking a certain thing of him.

    Concerning the Greek word προσκυνέω (proskuneó)...
    Strong's Greek: 4352. προσκυνέω (proskuneó) -- to do reverence to
    Strong's Concordance
    proskuneó: to do reverence to
    Original Word: προσκυνέω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: proskuneó
    Phonetic Spelling: (pros-koo-neh'-o)
    Definition: to do reverence to
    Usage: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.

    HELPS Word-studies
    4352 proskynéō (from 4314 /prós, "towards" and kyneo, "to kiss") – properly, to kiss the ground when prostrating before a superior; to worship, ready "to fall down/prostrate oneself to adore on one's knees" (DNTT); to "do obeisance" (BAGD).

    ["The basic meaning of 4352 (proskynéō), in the opinion of most scholars, is to kiss. . . . On Egyptian reliefs worshipers are represented with outstretched hand throwing a kiss to (pros-) the deity" (DNTT, 2, 875,876).

    4352 (proskyneō) has been (metaphorically) described as "the kissing-ground" between believers (the Bride) and Christ (the heavenly Bridegroom). While this is true, 4352 (proskynéō) suggests the willingness to make all necessary physical gestures of obeisance.]

    NAS Exhaustive Concordance
    Word Origin
    from pros and kuneó (to kiss)
    Definition
    to do reverence to
    NASB Translation
    bow down (1), bow down before (1), bowed down (1), bowed down before (2), bowing before (1), bowing down (1), prostrated himself before (1), worship (32), worshiped (17), worshipers (1), worshiping (1), worships (1).


    We can see that this Greek word does not necessarily apply to worship in the sense of worship that is exclusively rendered to Jehovah.
    For example, at Romans 12:10, the Greek word σέβομαι (sebó) is used, and more specifically applies to Godly devotion, or worship.
    So bowing respectfully to Jesus, is not the same as giving Jehovah God worship.

    I think having the idea that Jesus is the same as God, will cause one to reason from that idea, as opposed to reasoning from scriptures, such as mentioned earlier.
    So we need to establish whether Jesus is part of a Godhead.

    What scriptural proof do you have for that?
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's a good scripture.
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Hebrews 1:8

    Is a good example. Basically recognized as a parallel verse to verses in Psalms, we note an actual, 'christian', translation, really, that's what this is.

    Now, note how, Throne, and Kingdom, are here, as well.
    Hmmmmm...
    Now, can this really be talking about a
    Rabbi? Does that really make sense? In other words, you are going to start refuting your own arguments, if you interpret this differently in Psalms.

    And, no, 'G-d' without specification, does not refer to people, and isn't a "title". It is only a word or title, with specification, description.

    You are asking me, to prove something textually, that can only mean one thing, textually, so, if you don't believe this, then you might be asking the wrong questions.
     
    #18 Desert Snake, Feb 12, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    This is the one scripture you are using to prove the Godhead?
    Okay. Let's look at it.
    Hebrews 1
    8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee
    With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
    10 And,Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth,
    And the heavens are the works of thy hands:


    Can you help me to appreciate how this proves a Godhead.
    Perhaps you can start by explaining what the Godhead is, because I don't want to assume, since they are many different versions apparently. Then you can explain how the verse proves your version.
    Thanks

    Not sure I understand. What premise are you refuting, and what text and argument exactly are you saying is refuted?

    I was only saying that you use scripture rather than a doctrine, to make an argument, otherwise you would need to show that the doctrine is scriptural.
    For example, if I am talking about a situation with a bus, and train, and someone says the bus can fly, they would need to prove that a bus flies, in order that it fits the situation.

    So, you said, quote..."Jesus is noted, at least textually, as 'not an angel', as far as I read it. The reason mainly being, the Godhood just isn't described like that, in the 'new testament'." ...unquote.
    Which reminds me, you did not answer my question - What is an angel, and what reason(s) do you have for exclude Jesus from being such?
    Can you answer it? It's important to me, and the discussion, since you raised an objection.

    I just realized you said Godhood, which I mistook for Godhead. Is that a problem, or do they mean the same thing.
     
  20. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    I have no idea where you are getting, 'scripture vs doctrine', what doctrine? Doctrine from where?

    The New Testament says a lot of things, however one thing it doesn't say, is that Jesus is an angel. There actually is no reason to even refute the idea, since it isn't in Scripture.

    Godhood and Godhead mean the same thing, basically.

    If you want to get complicated here, when I say Godhood, it can actually include what you are calling angels. In other words, I am revising my arguments, to match your theoretical scriptural adherence, not presenting my own beliefs, in the manner I would, if talking about my beliefs.

    Other than that, until you actually explain verses like Hebrews 1:8, I don't have to refute, your theory, at all, to be 'scripturally correct'.
     
    #20 Desert Snake, Feb 13, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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