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Why does the land East of Long. 141 Degrees not belong to Canada?

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I know that America bought Alaska from Russia when the, then, leader was short of cash, and the Americans got a very good deal. What is not obvious to me is why the southern 'tail' of it went too? Why doesn't Canada have it? The same goes for Point Roberts, and that little place around the Great Lakes? This makes no sense.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
I know that America bought Alaska from Russia when the, then, leader was short of cash, and the Americans got a very good deal. What is not obvious to me is why the southern 'tail' of it went too? Why doesn't Canada have it? The same goes for Point Roberts, and that little place around the Great Lakes? This makes no sense.

My guess is the coastal area more naturally fit but doesn't it come down to the terms of the purchase?

It looks to me like they divided up that coastal region about half to Canada and Half to US
with he Juneau area to the US
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I know that America bought Alaska from Russia when the, then, leader was short of cash, and the Americans got a very good deal. What is not obvious to me is why the southern 'tail' of it went too? Why doesn't Canada have it? The same goes for Point Roberts, and that little place around the Great Lakes? This makes no sense.

Regarding Point Roberts, I found this in the Wikipedia article for that place:

Point Roberts, Washington - Wikipedia

Treaty history specific to Point Roberts[edit]
After years of joint occupation of the disputed area between Mexican California and Russian America known as the Oregon Country to the Americans, and as the Columbia District to the British, American expansionists like U.S. Senator Edward A. Hannegan of Indiana urged U.S. President James K. Polk to annex the entire Oregon Country up to latitude 54°40′N, as the Democrats had been elected on the slogan "Fifty-Four Forty or Fight".

While his government asserted that the title of the United States of America to the entire territory was unquestionable even though there was only one U.S. resident (a former Briton) north of the Columbia basin, Polk and Secretary of State James Buchanan made an offer of a boundary at 49 degrees with the line straight across Vancouver Island, with no commercial privilege to be granted to the British south of the line, with the exception of free ports on Vancouver Island. The British rejected the offer and the U.S. soon withdrew it.

On April 18, 1846, notice was forwarded to London that the U.S. Congress had adopted a joint resolution abrogating the Treaty of 1818 which provided for joint occupancy.

The British emissary, Richard Pakenham, had been advised that the last concession he could expect of the United States was to bend the boundary at the 49th parallel around the southern end of Vancouver Island. Fort Victoria was viewed as the future center for settlements on the island. It was deemed necessary around this point in time to give up territory on the Lower Mainland to keep Vancouver Island part of British North America.

Lord Aberdeen, British Foreign Secretary, proposed a treaty making the 49th parallel the boundary to the sea, giving the UK the whole of Vancouver Island. The Treaty of Oregon was concluded on June 15, 1846.

The acceptance of the 49th parallel as the international boundary was concluded without precise knowledge of its effects. Later, as the Boundary Commission surveyed the line, the British government realized the peninsula of Point Roberts would be an isolated part of the United States. The British Foreign Office instructed Captain James Prevost, the British Boundary Commissioner, to inform his U.S. counterpart of the situation and request Point Roberts be left to Britain, because of the great inconvenience it would be to the United States. If the American Boundary Commission was reluctant, Prevost was instructed to offer "some equivalent compensation by a slight alteration of the Line of Boundary on the Mainland". It is not known how the U.S. commissioner responded, but Point Roberts became part of the United States.[7]

As for the "little place around the Great Lakes," are you referring to the Northwest Angle? That's the part of Minnesota off the Lake of the Woods which is anomalous with the rest of the US border with Canada which falls along the 49th parallel.

Looking back, I wonder what would have happened if we had held out for "54°40' or Fight!" We didn't get 54°40', and we didn't fight.

Maybe Trump could make that his new campaign slogan, since his play to get Greenland failed. Maybe he'd have better luck with "54°40' or Fight!"

450px-Oregoncountry.png


Of course, if we extended the claim across the entire length of Canada, then most of the inhabited portion of that country would fall under US jurisdiction.

"54°40' or Fight!"
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member

This should not be a surprise... I did not know about this. It seems logical though, and looking at well documented and known history, the folk who founded and continue to run America are more successful than any of the historic invaders of other lands. In America we call it Manifest Destiny. The more I learn about it the deeper the shame I feel about it. Being half Native American, it feels doubly icky.

I'm pretty sure that America would take over Canada, and perhaps Mexico too.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This should not be a surprise... I did not know about this. It seems logical though, and looking at well documented and known history, the folk who founded and continue to run America are more successful than any of the historic invaders of other lands. In America we call it Manifest Destiny. The more I learn about it the deeper the shame I feel about it. Being half Native American, it feels doubly icky.

I'm pretty sure that America would take over Canada, and perhaps Mexico too.

We were definitely heading in that direction. In fact, expansionism was probably the major underlying issue in the Colonies at the time of the Revolution.

After the French and Indian War, the British gained all French holdings in North America east of the Mississippi River, but forbade new settlement east of the Appalachian Mountains. This land was reserved for the Native tribes who helped the British against the French.

The colonists didn't see it that way, as they wanted the land for themselves. Moving westward and settling that land was a major priority in the early days of America.

Expansionism was the one thing that both North and South factions could agree upon. The Northerners wanted to expand in the northern areas and take Canada, while the Southerners wanted to expand into the territories in the South and West. We purchased Louisiana from France, as Napoleon needed money and couldn't really defend the territory anyway.

Our attempt to take Canada failed miserably, although the War of 1812 gave America some measure of respectability due to our victories at Baltimore and New Orleans late in the war. This is probably what gave us enough leverage to take Florida from Spain, and it probably emboldened American settlers to illegally cross the border into Mexican territory and set up shop in Texas.

Meanwhile, the North and South were making compromises over slavery in the process of expanding and adding new states. We were also seeking an outlet to the West Coast, which is how we became interested in California and Oregon Country. We went to war with Mexico on a shaky pretext, but we made a deal with the British over the border with Canada. It would have been foolish to go to war with the British/Canadians when we were already at war with Mexico. The British didn't want war either.

I look back on the history of America, and I can see where you're coming from, at least as far as the "icky" aspects. I grew up at a time when history was told differently, at least in terms of how the US grew in size and stature.

I grew up with the image of rugged pioneers who "carved a nation out of a wilderness," along with fictionalized portrayals of "Cowboys and Indians." And of course, we all "Remember the Alamo!" Songs like "The Ballad of Davy Crockett" solidified in people's minds the idea that Americans are tough, but generally good-natured, plucky adventurers and rugged individualists living the American Dream.

John Wayne and the characters he portrayed kind of encapsulated the American experience and how Americans view themselves and their history - even if it is a kind of "whitewash."

In more recent decades, such imagery of America has fallen by the wayside in favor of a more candid and truthful, although some have criticized it for being too cynical in the other direction. Americans weren't angels or heroes living out their "Manifest Destiny," but by the same token, I don't think Americans were devils with horns either - at least not all of us.

Ultimately, America would make attempts to reprove itself and reform the political system towards greater justice and egalitarianism, but that's also followed a somewhat rocky road, which continues to be such these days.

Part of the issue that we're dealing with now, as it relates to our history of growth and success, is that we have a country which originally thrived on militant expansionism fed by unfettered greed with the knowledge that "there's gold in them thar hills!"

While Europe was facing revolutions from landless peasants who wanted land of their own, Andrew Jackson came up with the novel approach of giving landless Americans vast tracts of land in the Southeast, where all they had to do was evict the current inhabitants, send them on a Trail of Tears to Oklahoma, and they'd have tons of free land. (And to think they chide Sanders nowadays for wanting to give away "free stuff.") The best part of it was, they didn't even have to do much of the work to clear the land and build their plantations, since they could get slaves on credit and make them do all the work. Of course, for the white settlers, that was a pretty sweet and lucrative deal which they couldn't pass up. But it was a horrible deal for the slaves and the Natives who were sent away on a forced death march.

This is how America got rich. This is how we got powerful. This is how we became a superpower and the Arsenal of Democracy. But we've also turned over a new leaf and renounced all those old policies of the past. We've become "kinder and gentler" as George Bush once put it.

But by the same token, we've reached a kind of plateau where we, as a country, don't really seem to know what to do with ourselves. All of our "old ways" are considered done and over with, but now we've reached a certain level of political angst and a quagmire over what we, as a country, should do next.

I guess we could go on playing the role of "Captain America" and bring about freedom and democracy around the world through superior firepower. For an expansionist nation built on conquest, our current role is something like methadone to a heroin addict.

It reminds me of a line from Star Trek, regarding the Klingons: "We have always fought. We must. We are hunters, Captain, tracking and taking what we need. There are poor planets in the Klingon systems, we must push outward if we are to survive."

I'm not saying that Americans are the Klingons, but if you get used to doing things a certain way for a long time, it's hard to change and learn new ways of doing things.

We realize now that we have to change and adapt to a different world, but America appears to be a facing a deep-seated internal crisis over what direction we should go and how we should adapt to the world.
 
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