1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why does the critique of Israeli policy lead to the labeling of being antisemitic?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, Jan 10, 2019 at 6:47 PM.

  1. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,481
    Ratings:
    +1,173
    I have no qualms with anything else you said but I find this part to be odd. Why did you feel the need to mention daily prayers ?

    Any sane person would stop whatever prayers they were doing if an emergency arises.
     
  2. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,466
    Ratings:
    +6,842
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    Despite the enormous amount of charity organization they create, Orthodox Jews especially towards the right end of the spectrum, it's often claimed about Orthodox Jews that we only care about commandments relating to G-d, and not those of our fellow.
     
  3. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    14,770
    Ratings:
    +2,728
    Religion:
    Anglican...heretic
    But not that long ago they did. I am old enough to remember it.
     
  4. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2010
    Messages:
    6,762
    Ratings:
    +3,124
    Religion:
    Judaism
    @Koldo
    As Tumah already wrote, Orthodox Jews but Haredim especially are often not seen as sane people. They are seen as extremists who only care about themselves.
     
  5. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    5,675
    Ratings:
    +2,475
    Religion:
    One that which the Creator made
    Thank You for your explanation and it makes a lot of sense based on the foundation on the "why it would appear anti-Semitic to critique Israel." Now, before I address other parts of your post let me address the part you tied to me. Me critiquing the Muslim world and the atrocities that goes on in N. Korea, Syria or any other place that you and I are familiar with (with the news media's help of course) is like beating a dead horse. I mentioned in another thread I believe a year back why people often criticize Islam to the point of simply badgering the faith which nonetheless renders the discussion as merely (and pejoratively) a stand up comedy thread.

    I'm personally well aware of the ills in the Muslim/Arab world and of the atrocities that go on in other communist countries. The reason I personally do not mention them is because on discussion boards they are mentioned to ad infinitum to my mentioning of it along with mentioning some actual critique of Islam, Qur'an, or other related topics would simply be something of "preaching to the choir." I tend to have these discussions offline because most people in my circle aren't familiar with discussion boards such as this and I think the engagement on these topics is bit more interesting as opposed to simply writing paragraphs of my opinion on it.

    But in addition to what you've already explained which was well written by the way, I would add that part of the fears of critiquing Israel also has to do with collective Jewish power and influence. That is not me invoking the stereotype, however there are some Jews with governmental, and local power and influence to sway opinions again case in point Marc Lamont Hill and Angela Davis. For the latter, Ms. Davis has been a civil rights activist long before I was born and has made comments about the oppression of others across the world. Now the Jewish community in the Alabama area has exercised this power when they criticized Angela Davis' remarks concerning Palestinians which lead to the civil rights institute to reneging on her award.

    Most civil rights activists like her tend to extend the state of oppression others face in relation to the people back home in the United States in her case African-Americans even in her own remarks:

    "I have indeed expressed opposition to policies and practices of the state of Israel, as I express similar opposition to US support for the Israeli occupation of Palestine and to other discriminatory US policies,” she said.

    Angela Davis: I was refused a Civil Rights award for supporting Palestine

    What many find problematic is when you exercise that power against long time civil rights advocates yet fall silent to others who are openly anti-Semitic (Donald J Trump being one of them) it calls into the account the moving of goal posts along with the hypocritical nature of some power that some Jewish groups hold here in the United States. In closing, going back to what you said at the beginning:

    "The claim that critiquing Israeli policy is antisemitic stems from what is usually the unequal treatment Israel's critics devote to Israel."

    It appears unequal to those among the Jewish community in Israel but to the outside at least to me it isn't. To critique Israel, I mean truly critique it as a political figure is very taboo and costly. That is the power the American Jewish community as well as the country of Israel hold in the United States.
     
  6. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    5,675
    Ratings:
    +2,475
    Religion:
    One that which the Creator made
    I actually agree and this does not reflect the democratic process that the United States touts. But the problem that is at stake here is you have two people Mr. Hill, and Ms. Davis who have been long time Palestinian rights advocates so nothing is new here, and their remarks concerning the issues in that region are not anti-Semitic and they have in exhaustive fashion have made these clear distinctions between the government and people.
     
  7. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    5,675
    Ratings:
    +2,475
    Religion:
    One that which the Creator made
    True. But this debate would be for a different topic, but I'm here to understand how academics who are long time advocates for civil rights in different parts of the world get labeled anti-Semitic while certain republican figures who are openly anti-Semitic get a pass.
     
  8. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    5,675
    Ratings:
    +2,475
    Religion:
    One that which the Creator made
    Understood. But let us get to the crux of the issue here as I mentioned two key figures, Hill and Davis. Both who have been in that region, both who have background knowledge on civil rights issues not just here in the states but also speak on atrocities elsewhere. Why give these academics these labels who have been doing this a long time yet, other figures in the political sphere case in point Steven King who touts white nationalist ideals openly?
     
  9. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    5,675
    Ratings:
    +2,475
    Religion:
    One that which the Creator made
    This didn't even explain anything regarding the question. Hill already said Palestinians who are under physical attack have a right to defend themselves. I agree with what he said. If you're trying to kill me under some pretense that I'm trying to harm you and I've done nothing to you, I have a right to shoot at you. Ms. Davis has been a long time civil rights advocate so its nice you cherry pick things that you disagree with but overall these are two valuable figures. Yeah sure you advocate for segregation (e.g. the wall) under the excuse that they "wont shoot each other" yahhh way to give peace a chance. So congratulations on showing your support of an apartheid system such as this wall.

    Furthermore going back to your mentioning of Davis in association with BDS if that is true then why affect her award acceptance? If she is truly anti-Semitic why not affect her job at UCLA? Why wait until she receives an award from the civil rights institute? did Alabama Jews care to see Hill and Davis' body of work? Obviously the people in Alabama disagrees with these Jewish backlash because Davis got her award and people have quit behind them reneging on her award acceptance but by no means is Ms. Davis anti-Semitic.
     
    #29 Epic Beard Man, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:26 AM
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 10:42 AM
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    4,405
    Ratings:
    +1,914
    Religion:
    Jewish
    I appreciate most of what you said, but I just wanted to point out that, though I try not to be sensitive about things like this, your closing line,
    leads to the kind of response you are trying to avoid.
    The assumption that there is some monolithic Jewish community with some disproportionate power is what feeds the various stereotypes. There are organizations that represent blocs of voters, and politicians play to their perceived bases. The NRA, the AARP and countless other special interest groups champion portions of the populace and protest when they see their local (or not so local) politicians lauding people whose positions run counter to their values. But people rarely then lump "all gun owners" or "all retirees" into one giant group with power and "hold." Citing this power hearkens back to age old conspiracy theories about the ZOG which is, I hope you understand, an argument against mythical Jewish control, not Israel's policies.

    The fact is, Israel was created to be a Jewish homeland, so to defend it is to defend the idea of the existence (and right of existence) of that homeland. To call for its political destruction is to call for the loss of autonomy and identity of a people. Should that always be assumed to be automatically the case? No, but the line is very thin between advocating that the country change policies which it sees as developed to ensure its security, safety and continued existence, and advocating that the country simply cease to exist.
     
  11. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    28,020
    Ratings:
    +12,319
    The notion that a government represents an entire race is asinine. More so is the notion that such a government is beyond reproach because it does.
     
  12. DavidMcCann

    DavidMcCann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2014
    Messages:
    2,300
    Ratings:
    +1,279
    Religion:
    Hellenic Polytheist
    What happened to the autonomy and identity of the Afrikaners in South Africa? Or that of the Confederate States of America? If you cannot preserve your identity and autonomy with justice you do not deserve it.
     
  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    4,405
    Ratings:
    +1,914
    Religion:
    Jewish
    That begs a significant number of questions, not the least of which has to do with the definition of "justice" -- it presumes that what Israel does to defend itself isn't just. It also ignores that the underlying question on this thread is whether the group involved has the right to that autonomous identity. The posed problem is why there is a connection between anti-Israel statements and perceived anti-Semitism, and part of the answer is because the complete identity of one is tied into the existence of the other.
     
  14. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    5,675
    Ratings:
    +2,475
    Religion:
    One that which the Creator made
    Well, it is not my intent to sound offensive I made that comment in context of what has transpired between Dr. Hill and Davis. You must understand @rosends Dr. Angela Davis has been a civil rights activist for decades before I was born. I understand she has her critics especially being in support of the Soledad brothers or what not but this woman's body of work is phenomenal. For her support of the Palestinian cause and relate it to the cause and struggle of African-Americans is an unprecedented because she like many other academics are trying to appeal to those they believe are suffering under oppression like many African-Americans during the civil ri. She is also an established professor here in California and is well respected. Now, say what you want to say about Hill or what not and those famous six words he used in his speech (we can agree to disagree on those matters) but when Angela Davis has spent her whole life fighting for civil rights for blacks and other people on God's earth on to have a civil rights organization, an organization she is a part of, rescind her aware because of the complaints of the Jewish community is there this leads one to regress back to those feelings.

    The Jewish community is very small I understand that, but when you have social, political, and financial influence it does not matter the demographic size of the community. Do you not find it problematic that such a small community that simply complained about an esteemed civil rights activist's support for Palestine is able to influence an award to be given to her problematic? I mean let us take an honest look at the body of work Dr. Davis has in comparison to other true anti-Semites. There are people in the white house now that supports alt-right principles, Donald Trump being one of them yet he was welcomed to the synagogue after the shooting.

    But yes, you're right. The Jewish community is as diverse as other groups and the opinions among this demographic vary so yes it would be unfair to cast a net to collect everyone as if everyone has a single opinion on a matter. But when such a small group can make these influential reactions where some people get fired and some have rewards rescinded, it can create this negative reaction where some people may thing how such a small community can wield so much power to influence company moves. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Angela Davis and much less the controversy but I suggest you read up on it.

    Angela Davis has never been labeled an anti-Semite until now and I wonder why now? Danny Glover has won the same award and has the same views as Davis concerning the Palestinian people so why her? Why now? Ultimately, aside from what you and @Tumah have already explained clearly I just don't see any justification in the example of Hill and Davis to be labeled anti-Semitic.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    11,338
    Ratings:
    +2,167
    There is absolutely no reason to call Dr. Angela Davis anti-semetic. None. That she was denied an award for such reasoning is a disgrace to the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute and a disgrace to all the individuals involved in such a decision.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    11,338
    Ratings:
    +2,167
    Undoubtedly there are people associated with BDS that you can cherry pick or even legitimately find making anti-semetic statements. The organization as a whole does not wish to see the destruction of Israel. Find me a quote from Dr. Davis that in any way supports a finding of anti-semitism.
     
  17. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Sorry, just trying to sort the NONSENSE
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    1,793
    Ratings:
    +845
    Religion:
    I hope there is something out there that is smarter than me.
    And, perhaps the Jews whom she supposedly offended should have defended her?
     
  18. Shad

    Shad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    9,252
    Ratings:
    +2,180
    Religion:
    Theological noncognitivist
    It is probably due to her selective activism when it came to Communist and Eastern Bloc oppression.
     
  19. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    11,338
    Ratings:
    +2,167
    She herself would warn against such a statement. While I understand your intention, please look at your statement here and see if you can understand why such a statement might engender be problematic.

    Firstly while some of her detractors are Jewish, that is not the deciding factor or perhaps even relevant. The people whom she offends believe strongly that Israel is justified in all or most actions taken against Palestinians. People who believe thusly have little, if any, reason to defend Dr Davis. I only mean to challenge the attempt to rationalize criticism of Dr. Davis in this regard. She is most certainly not anti-semetic.

    The people offended by her political stances should be free to complain and speak against such an award if they wish. They should have been challenged though.

    The complaints and the decision were entirely political and have no merit.
     
  20. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2010
    Messages:
    6,762
    Ratings:
    +3,124
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The West Bank barrier completely ended suicide attacks in Israel.
    They just stopped.

    Also Apartheid always means that one side has it better than the other. The two streets are exactly the same.
    And this wall will result in no one getting killed.

    Does it annoy you that much that sometimes walls are needed to keep the peace?


    That's the wonderful thing about opinions. You have yours and I have mine.
    Also when it's about Antisemitism I trust us more than you.

    BDS is about the destruction of Israel.
    Just be a bit more honest about it


    BDS supports the return of all Palestinian refugees and their descendants into Israel.
    If you do not understand what that means you better read up on the matter.
     
Loading...