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Why does the critique of Israeli policy lead to the labeling of being antisemitic?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Epic Beard Man, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    First Marc Lamont Hill, now Angela Davis a civil rights activist who criticized Israel was not selected in these past weeks to receive a Birmingham civil rights award due to "complaints from the Jewish community." Like I said in another thread that actions made by Jewish organizations who have the knee jerk reaction of academics who critique the Israeli government, only furthers the white nationalist stereotype concerning "Jews controlling the media and the greater portion of society." In some articles and subsequent comments from black students from campus I'm already reading some of the sentiments. I should remind others (as I do now outside the internet) that the criticism of a country's government and their policies does not by default mean the critique of the people themselves.

    As some academics have already pointed out that even with the country of Israel itself, there are people who are against Israeli policies concerning the treatment of Palestinians. Case in point, it is already noted in some articles that the government of Israel is creating a segregated highway (dubbed apartheid road) for Israelis and Palestinians (see: Israel's System of Segregated Roads in the Occupied Palestinian Territories — Visualizing Palestine). If we are talking about optics here then we as observers can begin to do a healthy critique of the situation where you have one group creating disadvantages for another group and that these disadvantages and divisions are the result of the creation of an apartheid system. But I fail to see how these criticisms amount to antisemitism and warrant a reaction from some American Jewish groups to label such criticisms as antisemitic when in fact it is the government not the people nor their faith are creating such divisions.

    I'm sure some of you have a better handle on the why's and hows better than me but it is getting quite ridiculous.
     
  2. Stanyon

    Stanyon WWMHD?

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    I will take the liberty of saying (rightly or wrongly) that this seems nothing new or unforseen by many or most. Though anti-semitism is the topic here I 'd say there is the broader issue of you can't critique this or that because of this or that even when warranted when race, religions, etc. is involved. That mindset seems counter productive and tends to have a poisoning effect on any useful discussion which is why so many had disdain for the more extreme forms of political correctness. The pushback was never about saying whatever you wanted, it was pushback against a mentality that lead to dead ends and dishonesty for fear of offending, if you can't say it- what's the point?
    That's my opinion at least
     
  3. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    It's hardly surprising. Think of the American mindset throughout their history, including that of the settlers with the native "savages" up until the gulf wars. It's politics plain and simple.

     
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Every country in that region is scrapping to preserve its way of life in these times of rapid technological change. Some would like their countries to be more secular and some less secular, but each country seems dedicated to preserving religion as part of the culture. The surrounding countries in this respect are dedicated to preserving Islam as a culture. Christianity is getting squeezed out everywhere. Judaism has already been squeezed into that tiny little spit of land, which could be wiped out easily by a simple shift or tidal wave or if the USA sneezed too hard.

    The antisemitism in the Hamas charter and school curriculum is rarely referenced except on religious networks like CBN. The media here are quick to criticize Israel, some networks more than others. When Israel made its push into Gaza in 2014 the news and criticisms ran 24 hours a day.
     
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  5. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    As a Jew, I think Israel has lost quite a bit of its legitimacy by its expansionistic and other actions.

    This has nothing to do with a nation's right to protect itself. It has everything to do with actions which go beyond self-defense and into discrimination against Palestinians and grabbing their lands.

    People can and should criticize Israel for it's actions. Some bigots will conflate the actions of Israel with Jews in general and that's anti-semitism. Or they will hate all Jewish whether or not they support the actions of fundamentalist Jews or the Israeli government.
     
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  6. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

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    Aka the man who defended a terrorist that was responsible for a bomb attack that killed 2 people and wounded 9.
    Granted only Israelis, so that's okay.


    BDS is not only critical of Israel. It seeks the complete destruction of it.
    The founders have said so repeatedly.


    Reminds me of the farce that is going on in SF right now where a gay Jewish-Israeli business owner is harassed over his Jewishness.
    But hey what do I know.


    Democracies are a magical thing. You won't find this tolerance anywhere else in the Middle East.


    If only Palestinians didn't have the weird habit of trying to murder Israelis on shared highways.

    If only.


    Both Palestinians and Israelis can use the road. They just can't kill each other due to the wall.
    Also both roads are exactly the same. No inferior material was used on the Palestinian side.


    It's good that you've already come to the conclusions you sought.
    It's obviously just all in the Jews heads.



    Name a single piece of land that was "grabbed" after the establishment of the three Zones in Judea and Samaria.

    Please.
     
  7. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    I think it comes down to double standards. We're all asked to pull our punches when discussing Hamas and/or the PA.
     
  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Maybe some people take Dr. King's statement that "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.” more seriously than others.
     
  9. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I'd had no religious education before I was 27 (1974), and war introduced into religiosity by a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth". It had the Children of Israel being hidden by G_d underground at the end. I spent a week in Israel. Currently, the only Jews, in my own family, I know in real life are Atheists.

    Last night I watched a Video where the 1973 War was a preemptive strike by Israel on Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. I am still trying to understand that War.

    According to the limited history I've read about modern Israel, Zionists badgered England to give them land in Palestine. Even Jews give conflicting views about Israel's ownership of the Holy Land. The more I learn, the less I understand. I've decided that the view of the Christians I came from is vapid, though it is quite emotional at times.

    I think the Muslim view of the end times is that the world is a can of worms.

    And sadly, it seems that any criticism of Jews or Israel gets one in trouble. Perhaps one of them could explain the Haredim? One Jew I briefly lived with, was adept at yelling and criticizing the Christian woman who had been kind enough to extend her hospitality. These days I tend to isolate or fellowship with confused Agnostics.
     
  10. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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  11. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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  12. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    You only need to check out the abyssal difference between Jordan and Israel as for IQ scores, GDP and cultural achievements to find out anthropological reasons only determine the conflict.
     
  13. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    That's a very unkind thing to say.
     
  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    The claim that critiquing Israeli policy is antisemitic stems from what is usually the unequal treatment Israel's critics devote to Israel. An extreme case in point, is UN resolutions against Israel which amount to almost half of all their resolutions. That's absolutely absurd, when you consider what's going on in countries like North Korea, Syria, etc.

    We can also use, as example yourself. You've made multiple threads criticizing Israel's treatment of Palestinians. I haven't seen one thread criticizing eg. Saudi Arabia's treatment of women, alAssad's treatment of his own citizens in Syria, Yemen, or any thread dedicated an Arab country's human rights violations. I didn't find any threads from you about the death camps of North Korea, the Russian war to annex Crimea, Sudan's routine killing of women for adultery or slavery in Pakistan.

    Belgium halted funding for PA education after an elementary school there named itself after a terrorist who murdered 13 children. Why did you not make a thread about a PA elementary school that names itself after a murderer of 13 children? Hamas funnels about half of the aid it receives from the EU - not to charity, education, and health, but to building tunnels it can use to capture and kill Israelis. Are you familiar with the living conditions in Gaza? Why did you not make a thread about Hamas ignoring it's civilian's needs?

    I can go on and on and on. To be fair, I did find a thread you made about racism in India. I could not find any threads specifically addressing any humanitarian crimes in Arab or African countries. As you've noted in another thread, Muslims have difficulty criticizing Islam. What you have yet to note is the difficulty in criticizing the umma. This follows the famous Arabic line (there are different versions), "I will support my brother against my cousin, I will support my cousin against the stranger".




    So that is why criticizing Israel is often perceived as antisemitic.
     
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  15. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I am Haredi. What could you possibly need an explanation to about us, that would relate in any way to this thread?
     
  16. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    In Cyprus there is a Greek part and a Turkish one
    they don't bomb one another from sunrise to sunset
     
  17. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Why do you find it surprising that there is a right and a left in Israel and among Jewish people worldwide?
     
  18. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    My encounters with Haredi have left me feeling bruised and less than. I have been to Israel and live in America. There is no excuse for some of what happened to me by some people there. If I were bleeding in the street in front of some Haredi, would I die? I think so.

    I have had both good and bad experiences with Jews in America. You are acting like a jerk.
     
  19. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I find it difficult to believe that you would have any experience with Haredi people, as Haredim tend to keep their head down (in some groups, quite literally). It's unlikely that you would even be noticed.
     
  20. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I can see that you are still trying to understand it.
    Mostly because in 1973 was the Yom Kippur War in which Israel was attacked by Egypt and Syria.


    You apparently mean the Six Day War that was in 1967.
    Though I can hardly understand what's difficult to grasp.
    - Anti Jewish Propaganda in the Arab States with calls to revert 1948 and throw the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea
    - Egypt amasses its Army in the Sinai, Syria and Jordan don't have to because their troops are already at the border
    - More Arab rhetoric about an Endlösung
    - The closing of the Straits of Tiran by Egypt, which in itself is an act of war
    - To deny Arab dreams of the destruction of Israel it strikes first and wins


    Badgered, interesting choice of words.


    Jews having different opinions? How insane.


    Well try it.


    Have you tried wikipedia?
    What do you not understand?
    Also what is there to understand?


    You know a sane person would say that this person was probably just an a**hole.
    Other people would bring up his Jewishness.


    What?
    How is the first sentence in any way related to the second one?

    And there has always been debate in the Jewish community about anything. That is pretty much our thing.
    If you don't know that you don't know a lot about us.


    Oh the bias.
    In a Haredi neighbourhood they would probably call over a volunteer from Hatzalah until the Hatzalah paramedics would arrive.

    You picked a bad topic because the neighbour of my brother is a volunteer at Magen David Adom who will drop everything when an emergency call comes in.
    Even if he's in the middle of his daily prayers.

    Oh and he's Haredi.
    Like quite a lot of Magen David Adom Volunteers.



    Crazy idea: How about the PLO brings forward a peace proposal that doesn't lead to the end of Israel so that the future of the settlements can be discussed during the talks.

    Also Area C is not Palestinian land. It's like no one ever read the Oslo Accords.



    "Y-yeah b-but it's different with Israel."
    My personal pet-peeves are the Occupation of Western Sahara and West Papua.
    Especially the genocide in West Papua is immensely "fun" in how no one who claims to care about human rights issues has often never even heard of it.
    Aren't conflicts fun when the "International community" just doesn't care about them because there aren't any Jews involved?

    As to your other questions, I think you know the answer to them already. :(
     
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