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Why does religion exist?

CEMB

Member
Thought I would create this thread to get some discussion going about why religion/s actually exist and their purpose. I believe a religion should have three aims:

1) It should explain how to achieve enlightenment or reach Heaven (and thus help us to learn more about ourselves and our place in the universe).
2) Provide a purpose, a meaning in life for those who follow it.
3) Achieve positive social change (helping the poor, resisting the exploitation of people, education etc.) and the improvement of humanity through the combined efforts of its members.

I am interested to hear the views of other seekers.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Thought I would create this thread to get some discussion going about why religion/s actually exist and their purpose. I believe a religion should have three aims:

1) It should explain how to achieve enlightenment or reach Heaven (and thus help us to learn more about ourselves and our place in the universe).
2) Provide a purpose, a meaning in life for those who follow it.
3) Achieve positive social change (helping the poor, resisting the exploitation of people, education etc.) and the improvement of humanity through the combined efforts of its members.

I am interested to hear the views of other seekers.

I think you covered it..
 

CEMB

Member
Fear of dying
~
'mud

Religion as a comfort... maybe, although some seek an end so to escape or in the hope of escape. If death ended our existence then it might make everything more simple. However, for me life has never been simple and I don't think death is either. I think we continue in way or another.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Thought I would create this thread to get some discussion going about why religion/s actually exist and their purpose. I believe a religion should have three aims:

1) It should explain how to achieve enlightenment or reach Heaven (and thus help us to learn more about ourselves and our place in the universe).
2) Provide a purpose, a meaning in life for those who follow it.
3) Achieve positive social change (helping the poor, resisting the exploitation of people, education etc.) and the improvement of humanity through the combined efforts of its members.

I am interested to hear the views of other seekers.

Okay, here's my take:

Religion should be about humans getting into and maintaining the right relationship(s) with the non-human persons with whom we share this Earth.
 

Whiterain

Get me off of this planet
The difference between delusion and reality is somewhat fickle in religion. Sadly, much of it, other than bloodhsed, was put together by monks intoxicated on drugs over the ages. While we learn more about our intriguing minds, drugs may not just induce these experiences, but amplify what our mind, or some of our minds, already do on their own.

I've turned to the animal kingdom more often. I am uncertain of what to believe as far as the origin of Man, someone had intercourse with an ape at some point for sure. Can a Man impregnate an ape? Such outrageous studies have been done, an apparently a female chimpanzee did conceive.

Moving on, it basically boiling down to acknowledging the possibility of celestial power, not human beings, and not. When Monotheism came around with war everything began to change, as well as Man's knowledge and acceptance of the cosmos. Whether or not the God's or the origin of life began with some immortal extra-terrestrials, I have no idea, but I would assume they were residents, not aliens.

Immortality from what I learned was also deviated into the spiritual world, not the physical, as in physical immortality and eternal youth with the sacred fruit of life. This went away and was turned into fables as immortality became something less of a life adventure and something of changing the conduct of people so that they may receive immortality after they're DEAD.

Are there immortals living among mortals and choosing them as they desire? Well, that's one hell of a damn good film. It's easiest to remain open minded, some new age trend belief will turn up soon enough, I'll call it Neo-Paganism.

As far as why religion exists: Mankind is cult like, bar none, over anything. You like your actors, your athletes, imagine a physical God performing magic in the stone age. You could go back to that age with a zippo and an 9mm and do the Lord's work, many of our Gods legends are of the stone age. As far as manipulating the weather, I've left that open to possibility.

Some people just can handle it doe, have nervous breakdowns, cry.

What I learned from the Laird was the facts of nature more than anything, it's a cruel, sick, ******* world, the Kingdom of Mankind, praying on the celestial, You're ancestors didn't.


Some one asked me about my spiritual journey, I got an understanding from the ice age.

******** said:
i want to know more about it

Im also doing it, but now i want to go from novice level to hardcore level, I guess a good way is to climb the himalayas :yes:

but also I will go on to the most desolated places of the world and my mind if needed to be, mainly meditating in as many diverse ways/tecnhiques as possible(meditations, yoga, dances,(mantras?) hard physical and mental work/play :p ,do fasting, pushing my limiting boundaries, confront and embrace my fear of death so I can feel real love.)

do you know any authentic comunity, freeminded monastery (non dogmatic) or any really interesting thing you would like to share? i want to face the fear of death most of all.:rainbow1:

I do not know if you're still here, I am sorry. I was gone a long time.

I do not know any congregations of the sort you are looking for, although they wouldn't be difficult to find. Finding a group not oriented around doctrine and dogma is easy enough, most people detest doctrine and dogma. I myself am no expert, having to re-assure myself I even knew what dogma meant, as doctrine is the word I use.

So I've found myself somewhat confused in the end, I wish you the best in finalizing a spiritual journey, I became confused in what I thought was the end.

It's been a gag, if you can stomach it. Nature, the facts of nature, it's a brutal, sick, world we are trying to civilize. Genocide, famine, death. There's nothing fair about our world, nor do I wish to speak on behalf of the Lord like a Reverend in my experiences, it would be outrageous, cruel.

The facts of Nature, go with those. What I learned more than anything is organized religion is wrong, but something can be made of it. Doctrine on the other hand is preposterous and came in to play some time during the middle ages with divine intervention, people praying on the metaphysical to interview into their situation, perhaps save their life. It's something that needs to be done away with and self defense put in it's place.


---

Doctrine as well, I mean, do your best to be a gentleman, lady. Lust, greed, gluttony, all the sins, it's like the former laws of society. Personal conduct and behavior in life, public and private. Just trying to make some understanding of what religion was getting at and it was like politics over the ages. From what I can tell it was the reform of society and how people were to conduct themselves as well as being punishable.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thought I would create this thread to get some discussion going about why religion/s actually exist and their purpose. I believe a religion should have three aims:

1) It should explain how to achieve enlightenment or reach Heaven (and thus help us to learn more about ourselves and our place in the universe).
2) Provide a purpose, a meaning in life for those who follow it.
3) Achieve positive social change (helping the poor, resisting the exploitation of people, education etc.) and the improvement of humanity through the combined efforts of its members.

I am interested to hear the views of other seekers.

The Integral philosopher Ken Wilber in his book A Sociable God, which I highly recommend reading, has a chapter exploring the question "What is Religion". I put together a high-level synopsis of his points with brief explanations of how we see and talk about religion paraphrased from him. You'll see yours above fits into these in different categories which we can discuss further. Here's that synopsis:


1. Religion as non-rational engagement:

- Deals with the non-rational aspects of existence such as faith, grace, etc.

2. Religion as meaningful or integrative engagement:

- A functional activity of seeking meaning, truth, integration, stability, etc.

3. Religion as an immortality project:

- A wishful, defensive, compensatory belief in order to assuage anxiety and fear

4. Religion as evolutionary growth:

- A more sophisticated concept that views history and evolution as a process towards self-realization, finding not so much an integration of current levels, but higher structures of truth towards a God-Realized Adaptation.

5. Religion as fixation and regression:

- A standard primitivization theory: religion is childish, illusion, myth.

6. Exoteric religion

- The outward aspects, belief systems to support faith. A non-esoteric religion. A potential predecessor to esoteric religion.

7. Esoteric religion

- The inward aspects of religious practices, either culminating in, or having a goal of mystical experience.

8. Legitimate religion:

- A system which provides meaningful integration of any given worldview or level. A legitimate supporting structure which allows productive functionality on that level, horizontally. The myth systems of the past can be called "legitimate" for their abilities to integrate. A crisis of legitimacy occurs when the symbols fail to integrate. This describes the failure of a myth's legitimacy we saw occur with the emergence of a new level of our conscious minds in the Enlightenment. Civil religion is one example of an attempt to provide legitimacy to this level, following the failure of the old legitimate system.

9. Authentic religion

- The relative degree of actual transformation delivered by a religion or worldview. This is on a vertical scale providing a means of reaching a higher level, as opposed to integrating the present level on a horizontal scale. It provides a means to transformation to higher levels, as opposed to integration of a present one.

In this thread someone summarized their view of religion as "fear of death". That would fit into the view of religion expressed in number 3 above, or call it "R3" for ease of reference. That is one valid understanding of how religion can be approached or talked about. It's obviously not the only valid one.

Your definition 1 fits within R7 and R9 above. Your definition 2 fits within R1.
Your definition 3 fits within R8 above.

My personal approach to religion falls predominantly under R4, R7, and R9, though I certainly understand and recognize all the other categories and their roles in the whole.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Thought I would create this thread to get some discussion going about why religion/s actually exist and their purpose. I believe a religion should have three aims:

1) It should explain how to achieve enlightenment or reach Heaven (and thus help us to learn more about ourselves and our place in the universe).
2) Provide a purpose, a meaning in life for those who follow it.
3) Achieve positive social change (helping the poor, resisting the exploitation of people, education etc.) and the improvement of humanity through the combined efforts of its members.

I am interested to hear the views of other seekers.

I don't know if I qualify, but may I ask whether you agree with me that describing how important each of the three aims is in and of itself and how they interrelate is very revealing in and of itself? It seems to me that a Seeker would do well to attempt to provide his or her own answers.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
It seems to me that the Christians want to go to heaven mostly, and so do the muslums, to chase the virgins;
those virgins that are dying all over the place.
But this thread was to Christians so the importance is on the existance of heaven for death being the most important fact here.
But as to "purpose".....and enlightenment to acheive...most people on Earth have no real purpose, they're poor and mostly starving, except in this country and Switzerland, maybe although Sweden...
.but aside from a few cities and countries...the population of this sphere of torture is decaying.
Number (3) is about number (2) really....but too few people really care.
~
Soooo....it's all about heaven...and how to get there...and the fear of not getting there, no matter what's done to others, or for others.
Sad to me...that there is no mysterious cloud containing that stupendous expanse of wonderous majesty called heaven.
No religion is ever going to save anyone, no gods or saviors or miracles.
You die and you become someone's memory, not your own mind you, but someone else's.
There's no cognizence in death, you won't know you're there...you're just someone's memory..oh! I said that already, didn't I ?
So much for religion...is there football tonight ? Or is that next week ?
So much for that and that's
nuff stuff,
~
'mud
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But this thread was to Christians
Why do you say that? He mentioned "heaven" only as a way to understand enlightenment. In other words he was including those with a Christian view. It wasn't directed to Christians exclusively, but inclusively.

so the importance is on the existance of heaven for death being the most important fact here.
Not at all. He explicitly cited "achieving enlightenment". Are you sure he wasn't directing this to Hindus and Buddhists?

But as to "purpose".....and enlightenment to acheive...most people on Earth have no real purpose, they're poor and mostly starving, except in this country and Switzerland, maybe although Sweden...
.but aside from a few cities and countries...the population of this sphere of torture is decaying.
Number (3) is about number (2) really....but too few people really care.
~
Soooo....it's all about heaven...and how to get there...and the fear of not getting there, no matter what's done to others, or for others.
To you it appears to be. Not to others. Not to me.

Sad to me...that there is no mysterious cloud containing that stupendous expanse of wonderous majesty called heaven.
No religion is ever going to save anyone, no gods or saviors or miracles.
You die and you become someone's memory, not your own mind you, but someone else's.
There's no cognizence in death, you won't know you're there...you're just someone's memory..oh! I said that already, didn't I ?
So you believe attaining enlightenment is about surviving in the afterlife? It's not at all what its about. Salvation, or enlightenment is about finding Peace in this world, beginning within yourself. When you realize that, there is no fear of death, because you've already died, not because you hope for an afterlife. You no longer fear death because you've been released of that fear and can now live your life Free. You have much to learn about these things.

So much for religion...is there football tonight ? Or is that next week ?
So much for that and that's
nuff stuff,
~
'mud
Yours is a very cynical view and fails to recognize all the many other areas it is about. It seems to me again, that to you in your experience, it was about fear of death. And now you've found another way to cope with that fear because the system wasn't working for you. Resignation to the fact and say, "Oh well, may as well distract myself with football"?
 
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`mud

Just old
Premium Member
so windy one,
I see you chose to use the word "He" twice in your response.
I find that interesting, what "He", were you refering to.
Were you refering to me, the "I" that was speaking there ?
Or was that the Christian heaven you were talking about.
Does "acheiving enlightenment" mean being good and praying a lot to your saviour ?
Does it mean treating people with the respect that they deserve to be treated to ?
What about the "purpose" that I mentioned, what comes to reward that "purpose" ?
Did "He" say something about that...I think "He" did.
~
I really hate the chopped up presenting of my posts, it deters from the entire meaning.
Your injecting your understanding of what am I saying is quite detering.
~
You may have no fear of dying and the aftermath, but I'll bet most people do, bet on it !
Have you heard of Pascal ? There is no surviving in the "afterlife", when you're dead, you're dead, finata !
"Born again" is another superstition in the world of myths that festers around in assorted religions, pure bunk!
Salvation and enlightenment, now that's good thinking, in real life,
but it comes from other humans, if were lucky, not from "gods and saviours".
~
I could go and on but you won't understand any of what I say, just like the word "peace" that you seem to not understand.
And as to the third "he" lower case of importance
What does the post have to with Hindus and Buddhists ?
~
I hate football and all it's encounterments(sic), I use the term for the absolute contrast only.
But....you can't even get that can you.
I ask again, who's the "He" that you refered to, it couldn't be Jesus could it ?
~
OH well...nuff stuff,
'mud
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
so windy one,
I see you chose to use the word "He" twice in your response.
I find that interesting, what "He", were you refering to.
Were you refering to me, the "I" that was speaking there ?
Or was that the Christian heaven you were talking about.
I'm sorry you couldn't understand based on the context I was referring to the original poster in this thread that you were misunderstanding. I was referring to him. Did you see me capitalizing the h? The original poster in this topic is a male, according to his profile. So hence the masculine pronoun.

Does "acheiving enlightenment" mean being good and praying a lot to your saviour ?
When someone is enlightened they are enlightened. As the Buddha said, "To insist upon a spiritual practice that has served you in the past, is to carry the raft upon your back after you have crossed the river." I really don't see the need to pray to a savior when you are saved, so to speak. Do you?

Does it mean treating people with the respect that they deserve to be treated to ?
It means being fully self-aware spiritually, which would of course include 'doing onto other as yourself'. The other is seen as an extension of your own being.

What about the "purpose" that I mentioned, what comes to reward that "purpose" ?
Did "He" say something about that...I think "He" did.
You can go back and read "his" opening post for yourself. It's on page one of this thread where "he" wrote it. ;)

I really hate the chopped up presenting of my posts, it deters from the entire meaning.
Your injecting your understanding of what am I saying is quite detering.
It's a common way of responding to individual points. I usually tie it together at the end. But these are separate points you are raising, whether you know it or not.

You may have no fear of dying and the aftermath, but I'll bet most people do, bet on it !
I'm quite well aware of that.

Have you heard of Pascal ? There is no surviving in the "afterlife", when you're dead, you're dead, finata !
That is of course not known by you, or Pascal, or anyone definitively one way or the other. For myself, I find focusing on that to be a distraction to living this life here.

"Born again" is another superstition in the world of myths that festers around in assorted religions, pure bunk!
In my best possible Yoda voice, "So certain are you"? It is a metaphoric expression of an existential reality. That you have never experienced such an awakening moment does not mean it doesn't exist or is purely fictional. There are countless individuals who have had such radical awakening and turning point moments in their lives, across all cultures regardless of religions or beliefs. "Born again", is simply the Christian way to talk about this awakening or Satori, or Kensho moment. Pure bunk? No, indeed it is not.

Salvation and enlightenment, now that's good thinking, in real life,
but it comes from other humans, if were lucky, not from "gods and saviours".
Salvation or enlightenment are actual experiences, not ideas or good thinking. There are practical lived realities that someone awakens to existentially and spiritually.

I could go and on but you won't understand any of what I say, just like the word "peace" that you seem to not understand.
Oh no, I fully understand what you are saying. I simply have a better knowledge of these things than you do. You're coming from a very narrow perspective on them, which doesn't bear up to the reality of them. You're stuck on taking metaphor as literal facts, and completely miss the point. It's like disproving Noah's Ark, and then saying therefore there is no such thing as human spirituality, because it was wrapped in mythological language of the past. That's a ridiculous and irrational claim.

And as to the third "he" lower case of importance
What does the post have to with Hindus and Buddhists ?
He used the term enlightenment? That's a Hindu and Buddhist term. I'm not sure why you didn't get what I was referring to. :shrug:

I hate football and all it's encounterments(sic), I use the term for the absolute contrast only.
But....you can't even get that can you.
I get what you say quite clearly. It's rather simple material to pick apart. I used your football reference to as a means to talk about the sorts of distractions people use to avoid existential dread, which was our conversation. Of course if the contexts of "he" escaped you, this would have been a lot tricky ground to navigate. :)

I ask again, who's the "He" that you refered to, it couldn't be Jesus could it ?
~
OH well...nuff stuff,
'mud
I suggest you re-read my words. The context should not have been unclear in the least. This was rather surprising I had to spend time clarifying that.

Bottom line, don't assume you really know what you're talking about in these areas and others are ignorant. Some people know a great deal more about this than you do and you could learn from others.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
hey Windy,
I've read my posts and I've read yours, mine makes sense and you seem to have mixed it up somehow. I tried to rephrase what the OP said but that didn't make any more sense than yours. I'm getting to old for this stuff anyway, maybe you're right, who knows !
I guess religion exists to fear religious beliefs, or something like that, who knows !
~
'mud
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Thought I would create this thread to get some discussion going about why religion/s actually exist and their purpose. I believe a religion should have three aims:

1) It should explain how to achieve enlightenment or reach Heaven (and thus help us to learn more about ourselves and our place in the universe).
2) Provide a purpose, a meaning in life for those who follow it.
3) Achieve positive social change (helping the poor, resisting the exploitation of people, education etc.) and the improvement of humanity through the combined efforts of its members.

I am interested to hear the views of other seekers.

Are you saying it should have all three aims or one of the three?

I pretty much see religion like a convention, in a way. The (literal or non-literal) gathering of people who share similar worldviews into one group, either to further ponder or talk about what is currently agreed. I prefer the religions that further ponder.
 

CEMB

Member
Are you saying it should have all three aims or one of the three?

I pretty much see religion like a convention, in a way. The (literal or non-literal) gathering of people who share similar worldviews into one group, either to further ponder or talk about what is currently agreed. I prefer the religions that further ponder.

Hi Sum,

I am saying a religion should have all three aims. Each is related to the other and causes the other.
Once you are enlightened, you understand what your purpose is and that purpose is to better or strengthen humanity; and a religion can achieve this (better humanity) more effectively than an individual because a religion combines the efforts of many and has greater influence.
I like your concept of religion as a convention, to talk about and ponder upon a shared world view. But it is more than this. Pondering changes little. Action is required to achieve change.
 

CEMB

Member
so windy one,

Does "acheiving enlightenment" mean being good and praying a lot to your saviour ?
Does it mean treating people with the respect that they deserve to be treated to ?
What about the "purpose" that I mentioned, what comes to reward that "purpose" ?
~
I really hate the chopped up presenting of my posts, it deters from the entire meaning.

Hi Mud,

Sorry I have chopped your post. You and windwalker having been discussing this a bit. I agree with much of what windwalker has written, but I would like to respond to the three questions you wrote above.

For me "achieving enlightenment" means gaining a better understanding of our purpose. Part of this purpose, indeed one of its necessary aspects, is to treat people with the respect they deserve. The "reward for purpose" is fulfillment, the knowledge that you have done your best with what you have been given. That you did not waste your life. For me this would be reward enough.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Thought I would create this thread to get some discussion going about why religion/s actually exist and their purpose. I believe a religion should have three aims:

1) It should explain how to achieve enlightenment or reach Heaven (and thus help us to learn more about ourselves and our place in the universe).
2) Provide a purpose, a meaning in life for those who follow it.
3) Achieve positive social change (helping the poor, resisting the exploitation of people, education etc.) and the improvement of humanity through the combined efforts of its members.

I am interested to hear the views of other seekers.

I believe religion exists because people ponder and worry about death. To that end they have divided into two groups: those who have either realized or rationalized various ways by which they might be saved from such an end, and those who have either realized or rationalized no such end. Both visions have their beauty and their horror.
 
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