Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[JM2C]

Job was a God fearing hard working family man. His life was ruined. He was a moral man. What was done to him was not

It seems that you predicated your arguments with a fixed conclusion already, base on your analogies, that no matter how I explain it to you, it would not matter anyway.

But read this anyway,

Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed Job in the second half of his life even more than in the beginning. For now he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand teams of oxen, and one thousand female donkeys.
Job 42:13 He also gave Job seven more sons and three more daughters.
Job 42:14 He named his first daughter Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch.
Job 42:15 In all the land there were no other women as lovely as the daughters of Job. And their father put them into his will along with their brothers.
Job 42:16 Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren.
Job 42:17 Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, good life.

By proving under fierce temptation the genuineness of his devotion to God, Job vindicates the truthfulness of God's redemptive promise and proves his sovereignty in putting enmity between his people and Satan. Prostrated by total grief, he still turns and cries to no one but God. By following the covenant way, Job shows himself ready by God's grace, and contrary to Satan's insinuations, to serve his Lord "for nothing." -MH

 

[JM2C]

Relaxing because I can identify that the computer game is not real.

“You are constantly watching over the world. It must get pretty dull, really.”
Reality is “pretty dull” to you.
While video games looks more like the real thing,
“If any of you have ever played simcity you'll understand my point of view - watching your city burn with panic and chaos in the streets is incredibly invigorating and stimulating.”
So, which one is not real? We talking, or playing the video games?
Still confuse……..no d yet…..

 

[JM2C]

You really aren't making much sense and the majority of your post is simply just quoting what I said. And it's "I'm confused", not "im confuse" rofl.

Of course I will not make any sense to you at all ‘cause I’m living in the real world, you know the “pretty dull” one, while you are still in your “invigorating and stimulating” streets of chaos and panic with burning city.
If you don’t want me to quote you, then take the 5th

 

[AlphaAlex115]

“You are constantly watching over the world. It must get pretty dull, really.”
Reality is “pretty dull” to you.
While video games looks more like the real thing,
“If any of you have ever played simcity you'll understand my point of view - watching your city burn with panic and chaos in the streets is incredibly invigorating and stimulating.”
So, which one is not real? We talking, or playing the video games?
Still confuse……..no d yet…..

It's "still confused" with a d lol. Reality, to me, is not dull at all. If you actually had read my post you would see how I was conveying how God would find reality dull. He has governed over us for such a long time. How would he find any amusement? By creating it. He's not wholly bad or good - just from reading the first chapter of the bible you'd be able to see that.

Oh wait you won't be able to understand because according to you I'm apparently living in a video game. You know you have not even tried to argue with my opinion, rather you argue with me and insist under this absurd pretence you've created that I'm delusional. How pitiful that you don't have the ability to debate properly.

 

[adi2d]

It seems that you predicated your arguments with a fixed conclusion already, base on your analogies, that no matter how I explain it to you, it would not matter anyway.

But read this anyway,

Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed Job in the second half of his life even more than in the beginning. For now he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand teams of oxen, and one thousand female donkeys.
Job 42:13 He also gave Job seven more sons and three more daughters.
Job 42:14 He named his first daughter Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch.
Job 42:15 In all the land there were no other women as lovely as the daughters of Job. And their father put them into his will along with their brothers.
Job 42:16 Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren.
Job 42:17 Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, good life.

By proving under fierce temptation the genuineness of his devotion to God, Job vindicates the truthfulness of God's redemptive promise and proves his sovereignty in putting enmity between his people and Satan. Prostrated by total grief, he still turns and cries to no one but God. By following the covenant way, Job shows himself ready by God's grace, and contrary to Satan's insinuations, to serve his Lord "for nothing." -MH

Children can not be replaced like sheep or goats!
Job was a stand up guy. No doubt about that. But what was done to him was bullying.

 

[serp777]

In God's view as a just and holy God, there is no one innocent because of sin. I believe God bestows grace on the young and immature, people with mental retardation, etc. To those who are mentally mature and capable of accepting the truth, there is no excuse.

"I believe God bestows grace on the young and immature, people with mental retardation"

Why? They are all sinners too just like everyone else.

Did God also bestow grace on murdering psychopaths, which whom have a deficiency in the empathy section of their brain? Or was that just for the moral lulz/dramatic ambiguity?

Also how can God be just if he invented sin just so humans could sin, when he knew ahead of time that they were going to sin? What definition of justice is that? Genesis justice? That's like the ultimate entrapment scenario of all time.

And then he decided to save and bestow grace on some apes (although not the conscious neanderthals or other sentient ape species) in bronze age palestine, by sending himself down to Earth, to sacrifice himself to himself, in order to forgive us from himself, in order to save us from himself.

How does anyone believe this stuff?

 

[religion99]

Because God doesn't exist. An Entity that doesn't exist cannnot prevent or permit an Event.

 

[JM2C]

It's "still confused" with a d lol. Reality, to me, is not dull at all. If you actually had read my post you would see how I was conveying how God would find reality dull. He has governed over us for such a long time. How would he find any amusement? By creating it. He's not wholly bad or good - just from reading the first chapter of the bible you'd be able to see that.

Read your post:
“I think God allows the occasional innocent person to die and wars to start because it's a form of sport to him.”
Like a sporting event?

 

[JM2C]

Children can not be replaced like sheep or goats!
Job was a stand up guy. No doubt about that. But what was done to him was bullying.

You are just like Mrs. Job

Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

 

[AlphaAlex115]

Read your post:
“I think God allows the occasional innocent person to die and wars to start because it's a form of sport to him.”
Like a sporting event?

Yes. How else do you explain how God lets such atrocities happen?

 

[Ingledsva]

It seems that you predicated your arguments with a fixed conclusion already, base on your analogies, that no matter how I explain it to you, it would not matter anyway.

But read this anyway,

Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed Job in the second half of his life even more than in the beginning. For now he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand teams of oxen, and one thousand female donkeys.
Job 42:13 He also gave Job seven more sons and three more daughters.
Job 42:14 He named his first daughter Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch.
Job 42:15 In all the land there were no other women as lovely as the daughters of Job. And their father put them into his will along with their brothers.
Job 42:16 Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren.
Job 42:17 Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, good life.

By proving under fierce temptation the genuineness of his devotion to God, Job vindicates the truthfulness of God's redemptive promise and proves his sovereignty in putting enmity between his people and Satan. Prostrated by total grief, he still turns and cries to no one but God. By following the covenant way, Job shows himself ready by God's grace, and contrary to Satan's insinuations, to serve his Lord "for nothing." -MH

There is NO replacing family in this kind of situation.


In this story YHVH is just evil.



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[Ingledsva]

What? No it didn't, and isn't.

There is no trinity in either the Tanakh, or the Christian Bible.

Deu 6:4 Hear O Israel, YHVH is our Elohiym, YHVH alone/only.

Deu 6:14 Ye shall not go after other Elohiym, of the Elohiym of the people which are round about you;

Deu 6:15 for YHVH your Elohiym is a jealous Elohiym in your midst, lest the anger of YHVH your Elohiym burn against you, and He destroy you from off the face of the earth.

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Read again please.
From the O.T., Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" -ASV or English translation,


but in the original Hebrew its very clear that trinity existed long before the N.T.;


"Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah" the word “Elohim” being plural shows that God the Lord, is more than one, yet is "ONE Jehovah".


Echad: a united ONE, and not Yachid: an only one

Baloney! You had better go back and read it. I translated it.


Fourteen and fifteen PROVE it is talking about OTHER GODS/ELOHIYM - not a trinity.


That idea is absolutely ridiculous.


The Jews believed, and believe, in ONE God.



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[Ingledsva]

You are just like Mrs. Job

Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

And right there we are told YHVH caused the evil to him.



*

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're right, but there has to be a central truth and foundation that underscores our purpose in life. Reflect on the central themes of Scripture:

(1) Creation was good
(2) Man was provided free will and stewardship over creation
(3) Evil present (God provided angelic beings with free will as well)
(4)Man disobeyed and creation and the earth was cursed (fallen world)
(5) God provided a way for redemption through grace and this was fully manifested in Jesus Christ
(6) Through salvation, we have an eternal relationship with God and will be united with Him one day.

(7) Rejection of God's gift of salvation results in condemnation and eternal separation.

When we are truly honest with our inner man (soul), we begin to realize there is more to this life than what we see and that a void exists. God has made a way to fill that void through Christ and restore us back to Him.

So "man" and angels were not good (or at least flawed), then. Who made them?

 

[JM2C]

Yes. How else do you explain how God lets such atrocities happen?

Now we can debate properly

 

[McBell]

Yes. How else do you explain how God lets such atrocities happen?

Apathy comes to mind...
As does Sadism

I can think of several other reasons off the top of my head.
Including the non-existence of god.

 

[CG Didymus]

So "man" and angels were not good (or at least flawed), then. Who made them?

The supposed "choice" was what? God told the angels "follow me and obey me and do as I command"? What was the second choice? "Or, do what you please and get cast into a lake of fire"? Only one angel thought so much of himself that he said, "Forget it. I'm as good as God. I'll do my own thing". And then asked, "Who wants to follow me?" And 1/3 of them listened to him? Were there more than two choices or was that it? Did they really understand what the lake of fire was? Did they know they would become "evil" and would become the enemies of God and would be sent to Earth to raise "hell" until the day they get cast into the lake of fire? Did God really explain to them and made them understand the consequences of making the wrong decision? He must have? Right? And then they did it anyway? And God let them? And then God created Adam and Eve? And then tried this "freewill" thing on them?

But wait, he knew what the choice would be, because he's the all-knowing God, but he let them make the wrong choice anyway. And then let the bad evil angels mess with them because they made the wrong choice? Yeah, I get it. It's been explained to me a hundred times. It's what God had to do because he loves us. So it's not really a "flaw" that God put in Adam and Eve and the fallen angels, it was out of love that he gave them a choice, "Follow me or go to hell?" Sure, that's a tough choice. A choice with only one correct thing to do. But God couldn't force them to love and obey him. To be fair, he had to give them a choice, "Love me or burn in hell?" It wouldn't have been true love if he didn't give them the opportunity to reject his offer. It's not like he held a gun to their heads and said, "Let me a make you an offer you can't a refuse. Love me or I shoot you." No, it was, "Live by my rules, which might seem crazy and boring sometimes. Or, have fun, lie, cheat, steal, have promiscuous sex, be gluttons, and then, after a lifetime of good times, then go burn in hell for eternity. What do you choose?"

Now true love is what he did to all the rest of the descendants of Adam and Eve. He gave them a rule book and had them make several choices everyday on what they're going to do. "Hmmm? Should I collect fire wood today? I know I should have done it on Friday, but what's so really bad about doing it on Saturday?" Wrong choice. Out of his own freewill he chose to get himself stoned to death. It's what he really, really, deep down inside really wanted.

Today, we all can chose freely who we will serve, ourselves, to make money our god or to follow a whole bunch of false gods and false religions. The decision is ours. God can't force us to make the right choice. He can only warn us that if we make the wrong choice, we will burn in hell for eternity. He has made it clear who he is and what he wants. Except that he did change all those requirements that he told us he wanted in the beginning. Which is kind of nice of him. He no longer has people stoned for picking up sticks on Saturday.

But, what's cool, is he made a provision. You can still make as many wrong choices as you want. You can live your whole life like God and his rules don't matter. As long as in the end, you make the one right choice. And that is believing in his Son. By doing that you'll get all your wrong choices forgiven. Which is nice. I wonder if the angels have that choice? They must, since God if just and fair. He wouldn't condemn people or angels just for one bad decision, would he?

 

[Ingledsva]

The supposed "choice" was what? God told the angels "follow me and obey me and do as I command"? What was the second choice? "Or, do what you please and get cast into a lake of fire"? Only one angel thought so much of himself that he said, "Forget it. I'm as good as God. I'll do my own thing". And then asked, "Who wants to follow me?" And 1/3 of them listened to him? Were there more than two choices or was that it? Did they really understand what the lake of fire was? Did they know they would become "evil" and would become the enemies of God and would be sent to Earth to raise "hell" until the day they get cast into the lake of fire? Did God really explain to them and made them understand the consequences of making the wrong decision? He must have? Right? And then they did it anyway? And God let them? And then God created Adam and Eve? And then tried this "freewill" thing on them?

...

Where in Tanakh does it actually say Satan is a fallen angel?


It doesn't.


Where does it say in Tanakh that 1/3 followed him?


It doesn't.


People that wrote after Jesus was dead - and that did not understand the Jewish texts - misinterpreted those texts - coming up with incorrect myths.



*



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[AlphaAlex115]

Where in Tanakh does it actually say Satan is a fallen angel?


It doesn't.


Where does it say in Tanakh that 1/3 followed him?


It doesn't.


People that wrote after Jesus was dead - and that did not understand the Jewish texts - misinterpreted those texts - coming up with incorrect myths.

How do you know? Using your logic the bible is one big book of myths lol..



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*

How do you know? According to your logic the whole bible might just be a myth

 

[Clear]

JM2C said in 3861 : From the O.T., Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" -ASV or English translation, but in the original Hebrew its very clear that trinity existed long before the N.T.; "Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah" the word “Elohim” being plural shows that God the Lord, is more than one, yet is "ONE Jehovah". Echad: a united ONE, and not Yachid: an only one


Hi JM2C :

Though I haven't ever seen anyone arrive at a specific trinity from the shema in deuteronomy, I think the specific point you are trying to make has historical parallels. One of the difficulties is that, much of the situation with early Israel is not clear. Israels history is characterized by apostasy away from correct theology :

It is quite clear that Israel apostatized from their origin religion and that they worshiped multiple Gods at certain times historically; Israel engaged in idolatry and many other practices that ultimately cost them dearly with the loss of prophetic revelation and it’s gifts; the loss of their temple; and the loss of their priesthood as punishment.

The pattern is that Israel would apostatize from specific religious principles, and a prophet would attempt to steer them back towards more correct belief system and, based on Jewish ability and willingness, they temporarily responded, but only to have this cycle repeat itself again.



1) Jewish Religious Apostasy
Like Christianity, Judaism, even in the earliest ages, has been characterized by multiple schisms and types and movements characterized by differing beliefs. At this point, it is very difficult to say from a religious standpoint what it means to even BE Jewish. For example, one may believe in the Christian trinity and be Jewish. One may believe In Jesus as the savior and be Jewish. (i.e. one may be firmly Christian, yet correctly call themselves “a Jew&#8221. For example, one can even be atheist and still remain Jewish. The term has become somewhat of a “mongrel” term in that it has lost it’s clear meaning. In any case, Judaism today is not the same as ancient “Judaism”.



2) The difficulty in defining ancient Judaism
We know that Israel underwent multiple evolutions in their beliefs, characterized by historical mixtures of polytheism, henotheism, and monotheisms and the various Judaisms varied in doctrines and interpretations according to both time and locals as well.

The predominant Judaism of 1000 b.c. is not the same as the Predominant Judaism of 300 b.c. and it is not the same as the predominant Judaism of 700 a.d. Anciently, Judaism in Jerusalem was not the same as Judaism in Egypt. We’re not even sure the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was, doctrinally and in practice, the same as the Jewish temple in Egypt that existed among the Jews there.



3) The difficulty in defining the Text of the Jewish Bible
Jews have the same textual problem that Christians have. The modern Jewish Bible is not the same as the ancient Jewish bible

Keep in mind that it is not merely Jewish religion that undergoes change, evolution and apostasy, but the early Jewish oral traditions tended to vary much more as oral stories and transmission than in later generations when they became written Tanakhs (Hebrew bibles) that could be copied, especially in the later ages of printing. Each step improved stabilization of the text. Even then, until they became standardized and edited by whatever group predominated influentially, multiple textual versions of these oral stories existed. One cannot even tell when the Shema started in its current version other than Jewish tradition has it starting very early. Perhaps the original Shema was quite different.

The Palestinian Talmud itself, tells us that there were three different versions of the Torah found in the Temple and that a forth one was made from consensus between the three. Thus, we have at least 4 different Torahs at this early stage. They may have varied much more than the limited number of textual examples of disagreements between texts that we find in the Talmudic account..

For example, Vespasian destroyed Jerusalem and it’s temple burned approx. 70 a.d., Flavius Josephus, who was a Jew that returns to Rome with Vespasian becomes a historian who writes histories of the Jews. Whiston makes the point that the Jewish Historian Josephus’ textual source material was an official copy of the Tanakh from the temple. In this model, this Tanakh was given to Josephus by Vespasian to use as a source for Josephus’ description of Jewish History.

However, Josephus’ history as revealed from the version of the Torah that he was given, provides a LOT more detail in Jewish sacred history and also varies a great deal historically from later current rabbinic and mishnic texts , as well as from latter “standardized” Hebrew bibles. For example, his version has Moses considering three plans to escape the impending Egyptian armies (parting of the waters, parting of the mountains, flight through the air), rather than simply parting the red sea. This is supporting evidence for the popular model that Jews had severely edited their texts so that, like the Judaism itself, the text had changed significantly between eras.

For example, historians documenting Israels Henotheism, discuss multiple examples of Israel, having changed the text to eradicate polytheistic references. This is the exact sort of reasoning which motivated the tiqqum soferim, where scribes made changes to the Hebrew Biblical text to “protect” God from anthropomorphisms and other points in the text that seemed, to them, at that time, to be blasphemous.

The problem is that changing text to “protect” a theological position is, somewhat arbitrary. Whose position does an editor protect? The same type of changes of text that protect a theological position were the same type of changes that may have Kept the Jews from recognizing Jesus, as the messiah they expected.

Justin Martyr, in his dialogue with Trypho, the Jew, had complained about such specific changes made by the Jews to their texts that obscured their recognition of Jesus as the Christ (and he gives examples of changes made). Modern scholars also can see certain changes have been made, the difficulty is know what the original text said BEFORE it was changed. One can see that entire books may be missing as they are edited out of the Jewish text. Again, though one can see large areas of texts that might be missing, one cannot then know what those texts might have said and what the Judaism they described might have looked. There are simply large holes in our knowledge. Even the Jerusalem Torah is incomplete and missing pieces and this is a relatively late document compared to the pentateuch.

So, while I agree that the earliest people that one can call “Israel”, knew about God and, if the early Judeo-Christian and frankly Jewish textual histories are correct, then they knew about the messiah as a divine character. AND they certainly knew about the Holy Spirit. It is still difficult to accurately say how they envisioned the three and their relationship at any point in history other than through textual witness (which sometimes disagree).

For example : Ignatius told the magnesians that ““It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity,...” (Ig mag 10:3) On the surface, this seems to be a "flip" of the situation one normally considers.

However : I think this apostolic Father Ignatius (one who lived when an apostle lived or when he could have known an apostle) was referring to the textual traditions and descriptions regarding Adam as a Christian. Multiple early textual witnesses tell us that Adam was told by God, in the Garden, that he would provide a savior for him. As Jewish Haggadah tells us in very clear terms, these Jews believed that Adam had the Spirit of God with him and was, himself, a prophet.

IF such traditions are correct and, if Adam knew the Lord God, the Father existed, and was promised a redeemer and understood his prophetic gift came from the spirit of God, then Adam certainly understood these three individuals making up the typical “trinity” existed. And, if Adam truly did know of and await a redeemer; a “Christ”, then he was a Christian in it's most basic sense (i.e. the belief in a Christ as a redeemer). IF Abraham and the earliest form of Judaism understood these things as well, then they were a form of Christianity, but simply apostatized from these early traditions and thus, were punished by God for having done so.

Since we do not have anything near an Original for the Pentateuch, we don’t really know what the original Jewish biblical texts actually said. I wish we knew what the early Shema in Deut 6 said. The original version may have been more clear and supported your point to some extent. Perhaps it would not have.

In any case, Good journey in this life.

Clear

[FONT=&quot]By the way, regarding your comment on “Yahad”.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The 1Q, 4Q, and 5Q “charter” documents use this term in a specific context. To avoid incorrect connotations, the translators in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Wise, Abegg and Cook” translation of the dead sea scrolls explained that they “decided not to use the word “community”, but rather they used one of the society’s most common self-designations: YAHAD, meaning “unity” (of a group referred to). “ Since the verb also means "to declare one" (i.e.we are united); the cognate can relate to the way God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were "one".

σετζσεφυσε
[/FONT]