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Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I have no idea what you're talking about.

And that appears to be the origin of our problem. You are not reading for comprehension.
As I explained in my post, there was no straw man.
Your explanation did no such thing of the sort. It was me who explained it properly to you by posting Wiki articles making it clear exactly what a straw man is. I even compare each part of the discription with your post to make it simple for you to understandm however, you are either lying or you are lacking in your understanding of what a straw man is, because you still do not seem to get it.
Please quit repeating that. Repetition doesn't make something true.

Ironically, you have repeated yourself.

I then went on to explain why and how my comparisons were relevant. You have, as of yet, not responded to that post.

No, you tried to move goal posts, create smoke screens, use the ambiguity in simantecs, wriggle, writh and squirm, all intermingled with faux-naïf.

I have told you that I am very busy at the moment so it is hard for me to respond, or even read, extra long posts that require to be contemplated and understood before replying. In effect, you responded by calling me a liar by using my genuine reason in your post for not being able to respond to your gratuitusly verbose posts

I'm starting to think you're confused about what a straw man argument actually is, since you cite it for almost anything.
I have demonstrate, to a high degree, that I am not confused as I provided plenty of relevant definitions to evidence my comprehension showing that I fully understood what a straw man is, but you did not understand it.

Show me where I have used it for any other reason, other than for objecting about your blatant use of straw men.
[/QUOTE]
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
And that appears to be the origin of our problem. You are not reading for comprehension.

Your explanation did no such thing of the sort. It was me who explained it properly to you by posting Wiki articles making it clear exactly what a straw man is. I even compare each part of the discription with your post to make it simple for you to understandm however, you are either lying or you are lacking in your understanding of what a straw man is, because you still do not seem to get it.


Ironically, you have repeated yourself.

No, you tried to move goal posts, create smoke screens, use the ambiguity in simantecs, wriggle, writh and squirm, all intermingled with faux-naïf.

I have told you that I am very busy at the moment so it is hard for me to respond, or even read, extra long posts that require to be contemplated and understood before replying. In effect, you responded by calling me a liar by using my genuine reason in your post for not being able to respond to your gratuitusly verbose posts

I have demonstrate, to a high degree, that I am not confused as I provided plenty of relevant definitions to evidence my comprehension showing that I fully understood what a straw man is, but you did not understand it.

Show me where I have used it for any other reason, other than for objecting about your blatant use of straw men.
I don't know where you come up with this stuff. I haven't called you a liar in regards to not responding to my posts and I haven't seen anything where you've said that you're very busy.

Comparing your god to other gods and things that people believe(d) in and/or worship(ed) is not a straw man argument in any sense of the word. It's very relevant in a discussion about belief in supernatural things and determining the truth of reality. No amount of Wiki articles explaining what a straw man argument is, will change that.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yes, you have made that clear.

Glad you get it now.

I do not have to respond to this as in writing it you have answered it yourself in your imprecision.

So you agree?

Yes, I keep it in my brain where my reasoning and understanding can be found using logic and intelligence to rationalise and deduce the whole concept that leaves one thinking that without a God we could not have existed. We would not even be alive if He had not kick started humanity.

These are just assertions. What reasoning, understanding, or logic led you to the conclusion that human beings can’t exist without some god?

There is no evidence that tell us that we just came about by chance, abiogenesis, which means that life came from life, biogenesis. That life came from God. I know that because the Holy Ghost confirmed it to me. You do not know that because science can not find a shred of evidence as to how life began or how we ended up with such divercity of species. The more you look into it the more you realised that science is mans attempt at playing God.

“The holy ghost confirming it to you” is not evidence to anyone else. How do you know it was the “holy ghost?” How do you know you weren’t hallucinating or conversing with Thor or Satan?

Science knows a whole lot more about the earth, the universe, and the diversity of life on earth than the writers of the Bible certainly did. And we’re continually learning more and more every day. Science does have an explanation for how life began and for the diversity of species on this planet. Science is man’s attempt to understand the universe and the planet we inhabit. The scientific method has a very good track record at filling in “god of the gaps” type of arguments.

Where is the evidence that humans were created by the specific god you believe in? Where is the evidence for that god? What mechanisms did that god use? How can we measure and demonstrate them?

Absolute rubbish, of course it is not.

What’s rubbish is to say that a bunch of people believe something, so it must be true.

If that’s the case, then Odin is the one creating lightning bolts, and Apollo is responsible for making the sun rise every morning. Santa Claus must be real too then, given that millions of children believe he brings them gifts every Christmas. Surely you don't believe the world is flat because a bunch of people used to think it was.

Thankfully, we don’t determine the truth of things by the number of people who believe them.

They believed it was, so, he did exist, in the minds of thousands of Greeks, which is where our personal reality lies. The Greeks created him.

So Zeus is real?

There is no reason not to believe them. If they claim that they have been abducted then by contended with their claim is to call them liars. How can you set yourself up as arbiter of what is true and what is false. Who are you to say that they must be lying because you have never been abducted so how do you intend proving that they were not abducted. I do not know if anyone aliens have abducted humans, however, they do and if I am ever abducted I will be one of them. You are to quick to judge and find guilty as liars anyone who

So we have to just believe all claims anybody makes until somebody can prove them wrong? We’re already been over this. We’d have to believe in all kinds of things that most likely do not exist, if that’s the line of logic we choose to use. Like I said, I’m interested in believing things that are true and how can go about determining the truth of the claims being made. Maybe you’re not, I don’t know.

You’ve got some nerve claiming that I’m calling people liars when I specifically went out of my way (more than once) to point out that I don’t think they’re lying, rather I think people can be (and are) often mistaken and misled about many things they believe. There are so many psychological and physiological factors at play in our brains at any given moment that we are completely unaware of, then there’s the fact that we are wired to see patterns even when they don’t actually exist. I’ll give an example to illustrate my point.

Back when I was working two jobs, I used to take small little cat naps between shifts to help me stay alert. Often during these naps I would awaken to bright flashing and swirling lights, accompanied by a very loud whirring sound and I would find that I could not move my body at all, even though I felt fully awake and aware of my surroundings. Oftentimes, after the lights and noises subsided, I would stare into the darkness feeling something of a sinister presence in the room with me. One time, I even felt like somebody (or something) was trying to hold me down. It was very unsettling and I couldn’t explain it. I’d try to scream, but I couldn’t. Then I decided to do some reading and try to find an explanation. Initially, I came across all kinds of blogs where people were discussing similar experiences and attributing them to everything from alien abductions to ghosts and demons and I could very well understand how people could jump to such conclusions. If I were to be abducted by aliens and taken aboard a space craft, that is exactly what I imagine it would be like. What was that scary presence in the room with me? Then, finally I discovered that what I was experiencing was actually a phenomenon called “sleep paralysis” and that there was a rather mundane explanation for the things I was experiencing. Turns out, it’s just a transitional state between wakefulness and sleep when the REM cycle is interrupted, where my brain was awake, but my body hadn’t caught up yet which leads to hypnopompic hallucinations and causes my sympathetic nervous system to initiate the “fight of flight” response so I begin to panic and imagine that there are all kinds of dangers around me.

So if I had told someone I thought I had been abducted by aliens, or that I felt a demonic presence, I wouldn’t be lying. But I would certainly be mistaken or misled. And that’s exactly what I’m talking about here.

Yes there is a difference, the probability that they exist differs considerably.

The probability that a thing exists differs considerably from the probability that the specific god you believe in exists? How do you figure?

If I said that I believe in fire breathing dragons then because we know that fire breathing dragons logically could not exist in the natural world we know that it would be folly to believe that they exist when they cannot, however, with all the evidence that we have, that suggests that a superior entity was involved in the creation of the universe, then there exists a real probability that God exists, even though we may not have received the witness of the Holy Ghost that testifies of that which is true.

Ah, but what if the fire breathing dragon is a supernatural entity, like the god you believe in. Then what? I mean, the god of the Bible logically cannot exist, given the omnipotence paradox, and yet millions of people believe anyway.

What evidence exists that points to a “superior entity” that was involved in the creation of the universe? And if that “superior entity” exists at all, what evidence exists to point to the existence of the very specific god you believe in?

What do you think the probability is for the existence of the god you believe in and why is that god more probable than Zeus, Allah, Osiris, Vishnu, etc.? People of other faiths make the same kinds of claims that you make that they feel testifies to the truth of the god(s) they believe in? So how do we go about determining the truth of these claims?

They are not relevant if their existence is beyond the realms of possibility, as many of the strange entities that you use are.

That’s funny since you said earlier that you didn’t even know what most of them were or whether I had made them up or not.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That is not evidence, that is history. Nothing in history can determine what will happen tomorrow. The probability that the sun will shine tomorrow is high, however, it is not a surety, therefore, there can be no certainty that tomorrow will even come, let alone come with the sun shining.

It’s evidence that the sun will rise again tomorrow (we’re talking about rising, not shining) as it has every day for billions of years. I don’t see how believing that the sun will rise in the morning takes anywhere near the same level of faith as it takes to believe in an immeasurable, indemonstrable creator deity that cares about the minutiae of the everyday lives of humans.

Why are you talking about certainty all of a sudden? Nothing is certain. We are talking about probabilities.

Yet you believe that you can determine what the future will bring, as a fortune teller would.

As already explained, there is no fortune telling involved. There are measurable and demonstrable signs that point to the fact that the sign rises every morning, and most likely will do so again tomorrow morning.

I do not expect you to believe that God exists. I am fully aware that the Holy Ghost has not testified to you so you have no reason to believe that He exists, however, like I cannot give you evidence of His existence you cannot give me evidence of His none existence.

I never said I could give evidence of anything’s nonexistence. How would you even go about doing such a thing? Can you prove that Zeus doesn’t exist?

That being the case, wherein is your argument. Why are you preaching to me that God does not exist and that the likelihood of His existence can be compared to bizarre caricatures. Why are you treating the word of God with such utter contempt knowing that by doing so you will inevitably offend Christians, or is that your intentions. Why are you effectively trying your hardest to actually try and convince Christians that their God does not exist. Surely it is none of your business. Even if you think that Christians are a bunch of nutter for believing what you do not does not give you a right to condemn them for their beliefs. As long as they hurt nobody in their belief then why not just leave them alone. Live and let live.

I’m not preaching to you that god doesn’t exist. I have stated over and over that I don’t believe god exists, NOT that god does not exist. Nor have I condemned you for your beliefs.

I am open to evidence, as everyone should be. I’m trying to find out what is true. I’m trying to get to the bottom of your claims for the existence of the god you believe in; your reasons for believing. It is my business, if you choose to share your beliefs on a debate forum, as you have. My beliefs are open to question, as well. Everyone’s should be. We should never be too comfortable in our beliefs and opinions, and we should be open to having them challenged from time to time to keep us on our toes and to keep our reasoning faculties sharp so we aren’t misled into believing false things.

Zeus, Osiris, Allah, Thor, etc. are not any more bizarre to the people that believe(d) in them, than the god you believe in is to you. To the people who believe(d) them, those gods are (were) very real, in the same sense that you feel the god you believe in is real. That is something you won’t seem to grasp in this discussion and instead keep claiming as a straw man argument.

As my grandmother used to say, you can only be offended by someone if you allow them to offend you. Think on that a while.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
If your God exists then why does He allow children to starve and pedophiles to exist. It is one of the most frequently asked questions of atheists and one that they think dismisses the existence of God. On another thread and another topic I recieved this post that caused me to think that maybe it is not something that Christians know or believe. Maybe it was lost with the creeds?



I believe that the answer is so obvious that we do not consider it. You first have to consider why you are here, what is this life all about and what happens to us when it is all over? Why are we here?
Coming here allows you to:
  • Receive a physical body.
  • Exercise agency and learn to choose between good and evil.
  • Learn and gain experience that will help you become more like your Heavenly Father.
  • Form family relationships that may become eternal.
  • To be tried and tested in the flesh to see if we will have sufficient faith if God to keep His commandments.
Your life didn’t begin at birth and it won’t end at death. Before you came to earth, your spirit lived with Heavenly Father who created you. You knew Him, and He knew and loved you. It was a happy time during which you were taught God’s plan of happiness and the path to true joy.

One thing that makes this life so hard sometimes is that we’re out of God’s physical presence. Not only that, but we can’t remember our pre-earth life which means we have to operate by faith rather than sight. God didn’t say it would be easy, but He promised His spirit would be there when we needed Him. Even though it feels like it sometimes, we’re not alone in our journey.

So what is faith? To have faith is to “hope for things which are not seen, which are true” Hebrews 11:1). Each day you act upon things you hope for, even before you see the end result. This is similar to faith. Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him. It is a principle of action and power. That is the test that we are here to take. The test of our faith. To make choices that reflect upon that faith in Christ. If we had a perfect knowledge of Him then we could not be tried and tested by our faith because a perfect knowledge and faith could not exist together, there is either one or the other. There is a Mormon scripture that discribes this very well

Alma 32: 17-21

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he thatknoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

And that is the reaso why God cannot intervene and prevent the children from starving or take away the temptations of the pedophile. As soon as He does then the whole meaning of our existence will no longer be tenable and we would all be subjected to Satan. It is not that God turns His back on those who are suffering, I am sure that He weeps for them and longs to do something to alliviate their suffering, however, He cannot do that without destroying the entire Plan of Salvation by taking away the essential ingredient of faith.

Now, that is my belief. As I believe that God is a personage of infinite knowledge, I believe, so the entire Plan of Salvation is perfect with every single eventuality being covered. What do you think?

It should not be such a mystery to anyone as far as the bible is concerned.
Being cut off from Eden and the tree of life generally equates to an absence of much of God's abilities and intervention. The rest of it reveals why -for our perfection and experience -and that all will be made new later.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I don't know where you come up with this stuff. I haven't called you a liar in regards to not responding to my posts and I haven't seen anything where you've said that you're very busy.

Post # 618 "I have a busy life that sometimes keeps me away from my laptop but I am sorry for not being as attentive as you would like for me to be."

That is true, you did not express those exact words, however, if you are astute enough you can see that a liar is what you inferred me to be when you said "I'll respond to your post when I have more time." Besides, I did not say that you actually called me a liar. I said "In effect, you responded by calling me a liar"

Comparing your god to other gods and things that people believe(d) in and/or worship(ed) is not a straw man argument in any sense of the word. It's very relevant in a discussion about belief in supernatural things and determining the truth of reality. No amount of Wiki articles explaining what a straw man argument is, will change that.

If that were the case you would be right, however, you know, as well as I, that it is not what I was referring to. Those characters that you used had nothing to do with our initial argument. You introduced them as a comparison that allowed you to say "look at these entities, if God exists then these to could exists". You covertly replaced God with a different proposition and then began to refute them or defeat that false argument instead of the original proposition, the existence of God. I do not think that you know what a straw man is, or how to apply it. Here it is again for you.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Post # 618 "I have a busy life that sometimes keeps me away from my laptop but I am sorry for not being as attentive as you would like for me to be."


That is true, you did not express those exact words, however, if you are astute enough you can see that a liar is what you inferred me to be when you said "I'll respond to your post when I have more time." Besides, I did not say that you actually called me a liar. I said "In effect, you responded by calling me a liar"

Where on earth did you come up with that? I said I'd respond when I have more time and you interpret that to mean I'm calling you a liar??? Huh?

I said "I'll respond to your post when I have more time" because I didn't have time to respond and hoped to respond to your post later (which I think I did).

Good grief.

If that were the case you would be right, however, you know, as well as I, that it is not what I was referring to. Those characters that you used had nothing to do with our initial argument. You introduced them as a comparison that allowed you to say "look at these entities, if God exists then these to could exists". You covertly replaced God with a different proposition and then began to refute them or defeat that false argument instead of the original proposition, the existence of God. I do not think that you know what a straw man is, or how to apply it. Here it is again for you.

We are still talking about the existence of god(s). Supernatural things. You think there’s more evidence for the existence of the specific god you believe in than there is for Thor, Zeus, Allah and all the other gods/supernatural things I mentioned that many other people believe(d) in.

I was pointing out to you that the likelihood of the existence of such immeasurable, indemonstrable, supernatural beings are equally likely. I.e.. The specific god you believe in is no more or less likely to exist than the gods and supernatural beings that other people believe in. Hence the comparison to other supernatural entities. I haven’t replaced, god. I’ve simply added to the list of supernatural entities people believe in, many of those which I mentioned were god(s). Believe it or not, lots of people used to worship some of those other gods I mentioned, and believed in them just as much as you believe in the god you worship.

I guess all I can say at this point is, let's see your math.



A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.

You've provided this countless times now. It still doesn't apply. We’re still talking about the existence of god(s).
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Where on earth did you come up with that? I said I'd respond when I have more time and you interpret that to mean I'm calling you a liar??? Huh?

I said "I'll respond to your post when I have more time" because I didn't have time to respond and hoped to respond to your post later (which I think I did).

Yes, I did, based on your past record I feel it justified to do just that. It was a smarmy and gratuitous comment with a clandestine edge to it, however, I expected you to deny it but that does not make it any less true.

Good grief.

That is a bit of a contradiction in terms. Grief is never good.

We are still talking about the existence of god(s). Supernatural things. You think there’s more evidence for the existence of the specific god you believe in than there is for Thor, Zeus, Allah and all the other gods/supernatural things I mentioned that many other people believe(d) in.

I believe in the God who created the universe and all that is in it. I do not associate that God with Zeus who was the sky and thunder god in ancient Greek religion, or Thor, a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, and storms. I do believe that Allah is the same God as mine but with a different name, or even the right name. Indeed, the religion is far more morally ethical then Christianity. There is only one God but in differing guises.

I was pointing out to you that the likelihood of the existence of such immeasurable, indemonstrable, supernatural beings are equally likely. I.e..

And my response was that, in my opinion, the probability of these entities ever existing is negligible, not even worthy of consideration, although I am sure that those who believed in them believed in them due to having lower intelligence than us. The whole narrative of Christianity is principled with moral and ethical dogma and beliefs, that promotes hope and gives solace in a world fraught with pain and suffering. The entire plan of salvation is a perfect plan. If followed it will lead to happiness and life eternal. It gives a purpose to life and creates feelings of aspirations, contentment, a reason to exist and an inner peace that makes life worthwhile. I do not believe that these entities, that you have mention, create the same ethos as that of Christianity or Islam does. The flying spaghetti monster does not give it's followers those essential ingredients. They are just a means by which non-believers can discredit and ridicule Christians.

The specific god you believe in is no more or less likely to exist than the gods and supernatural beings that other people believe in.

I disagree, for the reasons above.

Hence the comparison to other supernatural entities.

If the comparison were identical to the reasons why it is so easy to believe in the existence of God, then you might have a point, however, none of them are, so the comparison will almost certainly bring spurious results, at best. It is a straw man. You can only make comparisons that have similar values. There is nothing about Thor or Zeus that you can compare with God, accepting that there is no evidence that they existed.

I haven’t replaced, god. I’ve simply added to the list of supernatural entities people believe in, many of those which I mentioned were god(s).

You are adding a list of heterogeneous specimens to the original argument, thus, completely changing it. You have created the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated my proposition by covertly replacing it with an entirely different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then you will refute or defeat that false argument by adding bizarre caricature. Because you have made God a part of your list of diverse and divergent candidates it will be easy for you to knock down the straw man that you have created, instead of the original proposition.

Believe it or not, lots of people used to worship some of those other gods I mentioned, and believed in them just as much as you believe in the god you worship.

I believe it, however, it may have escaped your notice, but they do not believe in them now, however, God has stood the test of time and is still very much worshipped. We are different people today who have realised that these potential Gods are not feasible advocates, however, my God has gone through the same changes but is still there as strong as ever. You are making unrealistic comparisons.

You've provided this countless times now. It still doesn't apply. We’re still talking about the existence of god(s).

I don't know how you can claim that. We are now talking about God, who you have made a member of a list of unlikely candidates for being deity. The original argument has changed.[/QUOTE]
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Glad you get it now.

I got it before.

So you agree?

What, with your imprecision?

These are just assertions. What reasoning, understanding, or logic led you to the conclusion that human beings can’t exist without some god?

They are my truths that can only be verified by my word of mouth, but are as true to me as any truth can be. You ask me what reasoning, understanding, or logic led you to the conclusion that human beings can’t exist without some god? The answer is another truth that I feel to be right. The Big Bang. Many physicists now believe that the universe arose out of nothingness during the Big Bang which means that nothing must have somehow turned into something, ex nihilo. How could that be possible? Things which don’t exist can'’t be caused to ‘do’ anything, since they aren’t *there* to be influenced by a cause.” Transcending the entire universe there exists a cause which brought the universe into being ex nihilo, our whole universe was caused to exist by something beyond it and greater than it. For it is no secret that one of the most important conceptions of what theists mean by 'God' is Creator of heaven and earth. Every being which begins has a cause for its beginning; now the world is a being which begins; therefore, it possesses a cause for its beginning. It is my belief that God caused the universe to exist. This knowledge is assumed as a critically important first principle of science, and that it is affirmed by interaction with the physical world; for if it were false, it would be impossible to explain why objects do not randomly appear into existence without a cause

“The holy ghost confirming it to you” is not evidence to anyone else.

That is true, which is why I have never made that claim.

How do you know it was the “holy ghost?” How do you know you weren’t hallucinating or conversing with Thor or Satan?

How do you know that it wasn't God. What makes you question it? One would almost certainly know the difference between righteousness and evil.

Science knows a whole lot more about the earth, the universe, and the diversity of life on earth than the writers of the Bible certainly did.

Then your knowledge of the contents of the Bible has been tainted by your disbelief. The Bible is the creation of God. He is omniscient. Science cannot top that. Your faith in science obscures reality.

And we’re continually learning more and more every day. Science does have an explanation for how life began and for the diversity of species on this planet. Science is man’s attempt to understand the universe and the planet we inhabit. The scientific method has a very good track record at filling in “god of the gaps” type of arguments.

No, science does not have a shred of evidence to prove it's theory of evolution. There is no evidence that species transform into other species. There is evidence for adaption within species but nothing that shows a change in kind. Unless you have evidence that says differently, which I am confident that you do not.

But you would say that for the same reasons as I say that God exists. You wear the uniform of the atheist as i do the uniform of the theist. Science has, at best, a very flimsy explanation for how it thinks that life began. It is as unlikely as you accepting that God exists. Science has spent over 50 years trying to produce evidence for it's postulation, and billions of tax payers money, only to be no closer to an answer as they were when they began. The phrase "God of the gaps" was coined by a atheist scientist and perpetuated by the unbeliever. It is better to call them unexplained events that only an omniscient being could know.
Where is the evidence that humans were created by the specific god you believe in?

Where is your evidence that He didn't?
Where is the evidence for that god? What mechanisms did that god use? How can we measure and demonstrate them?

Evidence is not necessary for that which is self explanatory. You do not question the existence of trees because your eyes testify that they are there, likewise, I do not question the existence of God as my minds eye testifies that he does. There is no need for me to know the mechanism that God used because I can see the results of His works everywhere I look.
What’s rubbish is to say that a bunch of people believe something, so it must be true.

What is clever is a bunch of people, comparing experiences, in order to evaluate what they have all witnessed. If 2.2 billion people say that they have all witnessed the same events then it is very probable that they have.

It maybe rubbish to you, however, to Christians it is sacred.

If that’s the case, then Odin is the one creating lightning bolts, and Apollo is responsible for making the sun rise every morning. Santa Claus must be real too then, given that millions of children believe he brings them gifts every Christmas. Surely you don't believe the world is flat because a bunch of people used to think it was
.

Children believe that Santa exists because adults lie to them. They naturally believe what mummy and daddy tells them.

I can physically see that the world is not flat so that is a preposterous analogy to make.

I do not believe in God because a bunch of people said that He does exist either. That is just evidence that something has motavated the masses. I am not a member of any flock. I believe in God because the Holy Ghost has confirmed it to my soul in such a way that I cannot deny it..

Thankfully, we don’t determine the truth of things by the number of people who believe them

Then why do we take the word of 12 fallible and impressionable jury members, who can sentenced someone to death. Why have 12 and not just 2. Perhaps if we did listen more we would progress faster. Nobody wants to get rid of one and keep the other. It is science that is determined to do that. Both should coexist and work together for the greater good. It is very telling that it is the institutions of man who are hell bent on ridding the world of religion. Now who is it that wants to do that. Satan?

So Zeus is real?

Is that what you think that I believe?

So we have to just believe all claims anybody makes until somebody can prove them wrong? We’re already been over this. We’d have to believe in all kinds of things that most likely do not exist, if that’s the line of logic we choose to use. Like I said, I’m interested in believing things that are true and how can go about determining the truth of the claims being made. Maybe you’re not, I don’t know.

We have to use the good sense that God gave us and evaluate, contemplate, consider, employ the scientific method and then ask God if these thing are true.

You’ve got some nerve claiming that I’m calling people liars when I specifically went out of my way (more than once) to point out that I don’t think they’re lying, rather I think people can be (and are) often mistaken and misled about many things they believe.

As you too may be wrong in what you believe in

There are so many psychological and physiological factors at play in our brains at any given moment that we are completely unaware of, then there’s the fact that we are wired to see patterns even when they don’t actually exist. I’ll give an example to illustrate my point.

Back when I was working two jobs, I used to take small little cat naps between shifts to help me stay alert. Often during these naps I would awaken to bright flashing and swirling lights, accompanied by a very loud whirring sound and I would find that I could not move my body at all, even though I felt fully awake and aware of my surroundings. Oftentimes, after the lights and noises subsided, I would stare into the darkness feeling something of a sinister presence in the room with me. One time, I even felt like somebody (or something) was trying to hold me down. It was very unsettling and I couldn’t explain it. I’d try to scream, but I couldn’t. Then I decided to do some reading and try to find an explanation. Initially, I came across all kinds of blogs where people were discussing similar experiences and attributing them to everything from alien abductions to ghosts and demons and I could very well understand how people could jump to such conclusions. If I were to be abducted by aliens and taken aboard a space craft, that is exactly what I imagine it would be like. What was that scary presence in the room with me? Then, finally I discovered that what I was experiencing was actually a phenomenon called “sleep paralysis” and that there was a rather mundane explanation for the things I was experiencing. Turns out, it’s just a transitional state between wakefulness and sleep when the REM cycle is interrupted, where my brain was awake, but my body hadn’t caught up yet which leads to hypnopompic hallucinations and causes my sympathetic nervous system to initiate the “fight of flight” response so I begin to panic and imagine that there are all kinds of dangers around me.

So if I had told someone I thought I had been abducted by aliens, or that I felt a demonic presence, I wouldn’t be lying. But I would certainly be mistaken or misled. And that’s exactly what I’m talking about here.

Why would you share your experience with a stranger, anyone close to you would understand and not judge you. What jumps out of my screen at me is that your method of resolve was to seek advice from man when your answer could have been given to you much quicker if you asked God rather then fallible men, who all to often give bad advice.

To communicate with the Holy Ghost, spirit to spirit, is unique in every way, and very much unmistakable. Unless you have experienced it you would not understand that your experience, as traumatic as it was, is nothing like it. There is no negativity about it. I once read that we are at our most vulnerable to the enticing of Satan during the period between sleep and waking.

Your description of your experience is also something that I can relate to.
The probability that a thing exists differs considerably from the probability that the specific god you believe in exists? How do you figure?
We all drink from the same cup.

What evidence exists that points to a “superior entity” that was involved in the creation of the universe? And if that “superior entity” exists at all, what evidence exists to point to the existence of the very specific god you believe in?

Rapid expansion, which is still in progress today.

What seems apparent to me is that you do not understand why we exist and what we are doing here. None of this is directly about God, or who we perceive Him to be. This is about the individual. In order to gain entry into the Kingdom of God we must prove ourselves by striving to live a Christ centred lifestyle and exercise faith in Christ and God. Nobody can convert anybody else, this is all about individual conversation. It is about personal commitment to follow the teachings of the Saviour. So, it is not necessarily my concern whether you believe me or not as you will play no part on my judgement. I must stand accountable for my choices. Our life on earth is a individual trail and a test to ascertain whether we can be counted as one of the Lords elect.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yes, I did, based on your past record I feel it justified to do just that. It was a smarmy and gratuitous comment with a clandestine edge to it, however, I expected you to deny it but that does not make it any less true.
Wow.

No. It was a simple statement that I didn't have time to answer your post at the moment. Because I didn't have time to answer your post at the moment.

Good grief, calm down man. You're reading things that aren't there.
 

tth1119

Member
If someone harms me in some way, that's not their fault and I shouldn't blame them for it? Is that what you mean?

Sorry for the late reply to this, I haven't been around here since I signed up. I'm not saying for you to take the blame for someone else hurting you, no. To be honest, how many people do hurt you for no reason what so ever though? Imagine yourself walking down the street and getting attacked out of nowhere. In all reality, how often does that happen? It does happen, and it does happen too often in our world, but there is still a very small chance it is going to happen out of all the times you could get attacked or hurt by someone. It has happened to me and please do not take this as me justifying this behavior. How many times have you hurt someone out of self pleasure? I know I've done it, most people have in some form. I have done some terrible things in my past, I didn't know any better, and now I feel ashamed of myself for doing the things I have. I've never robbed someone, or killed someone, but I have acted like a jerk on a power trip, I've called people names, I've done bad things out of revenge, and I have treated people terrible because they did something to hurt me. Revenge and violence isn't the answer. If you can see this in other people then you can know you have risen above where they are in life. You want to stay above where they are, so don't bring yourself down to their level to get back at them and hate them. I'm not saying to try to be their best friend, but how else are we supposed to get to where we can all unite? Be someone that can help change people, and eventually everyone will start understanding this, they'll think twice before doing something to hurt someone else. Remember the simple saying that two wrongs don't make a right, but doing a good deed over a wrong deed will always make you feel better about yourself, and help inspire others to do the same while at it. You get what you give to the world, so try to start living that way.
 

tth1119

Member
Do you remember what God said the penalty would be for eating from the forbidden tree? ______ Wasn't it death ?______
Satan made a major accusation against God by saying eating from the tree would Not bring death. Genesis 3
Satan in effect was calling God a liar.
It was Not a question as to who was stronger Satan or God, rather it was a question about honesty. Who was honest, Satan or God ?
Being more powerful or stronger is proven easily, but honesty is Not like strength.
The passing of time shows all in heaven and on earth who really was the honest one.
Satan was in effect telling Eve that God was lying to her, and that Satan was the one telling Eve the truth that she would Not die.
That lie is still being perpetuated today in the teaching that a person is more alive at death than before death when Jesus taught sleep in death - John 11:12-14; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Eve go to know the ' bad ' because the ' bad ' was: death - Genesis 2:17
Eve thought she could be like God and be better off without God's guidance or direction.
By Adam joining his rebellious wife they were showing they would be better off without God's guiding rulership over mankind.
By taking the Law out of God's hands Adam put the Law into man's hands and Adam set up People Rule as superior to God Rule as the best way of governing on Earth.
Satan also challenges all of us - Job 2:3-5 - that ' touch our flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God under adverse conditions.

King David experienced suffering, and David believed God was there for us when we suffer - Psalms 31:7
Lastly, Scripture teaches that God will Not allow suffering to go on forever:
Through Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth all suffering will end. Earth's nations will be healed. No one will say, " I am sick..." - Isaiah 33:24
Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18
Blessed with the benefit of healing - Revelation 22:2 - when mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for mankind's healing.
That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation found at Revelation 22:20 " Come Lord Jesus! " Come and bring blessings to Earth.

I'm going to leave my reply to you short, because this one is very simple to me the way I see it. I like the way you explain it, I just want to share how I see it.

Remember in Genesis where it says "The man has become like one of us". "He has became like God."

But I thought there was only one God? There is only one God, one God for each of us, that being to reach the better version of ourselves. We need to all form in unity together, to all meet that better version of us, and we've found God.

Satan is the bad intentions of people. Satan is what makes people act on bad intentions. If someone hurts you, you act on the Satan like mindset by wanting to kill them, wanting to hurt them, or do something to destroy them the way that they hurt you. God like mindset is opposite. Find your way over what someone else did to you in a better way than lowering yourself to the level of someone who hurt you. You don't want to lower yourself to that level, so why do it? It is tough, but be the better person, be God like, not Satan like.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I'm going to leave my reply to you short, because this one is very simple to me the way I see it. I like the way you explain it, I just want to share how I see it.
Remember in Genesis where it says "The man has become like one of us". "He has became like God."
But I thought there was only one God? There is only one God, one God for each of us, that being to reach the better version of ourselves. We need to all form in unity together, to all meet that better version of us, and we've found God.
Satan is the bad intentions of people. Satan is what makes people act on bad intentions. If someone hurts you, you act on the Satan like mindset by wanting to kill them, wanting to hurt them, or do something to destroy them the way that they hurt you. God like mindset is opposite. Find your way over what someone else did to you in a better way than lowering yourself to the level of someone who hurt you. You don't want to lower yourself to that level, so why do it? It is tough, but be the better person, be God like, not Satan like.

Isn't it according to Genesis 3:5 that the liar Satan is speaking ?_______- John 8:44
The Hebrew has at Genesis 3:22 that man has become like the Unique One among us, knowing good and bad......
Wasn't Adam told that the ' bad ' would be death at Genesis 2:17 ? ______
So, only after eating from the forbidden tree then Adam would come to know death ( the bad/evil )

In Scripture the title word God/god means Supreme One. The word God is Not the Tetragrammaton YHWH
Please notice the use of the word ' God/god ' at Psalms 82:1-3; Psalms 82:4-6; Psalms 82:7-8
Those human judges ( gods ) were to judge by using God's judgement on matters.
Moses was made ' god ' to Aaron and Pharaoh - Exodus 4:16; Exodus 7:1
Some people's ' god ' is their belly - Philippians 3:19
Jesus too believed there is only one God - John 4:23-24, and that he still has a God over him - Revelation 3:12
 

tth1119

Member
Isn't it according to Genesis 3:5 that the liar Satan is speaking ?_______- John 8:44
The Hebrew has at Genesis 3:22 that man has become like the Unique One among us, knowing good and bad......
Wasn't Adam told that the ' bad ' would be death at Genesis 2:17 ? ______
So, only after eating from the forbidden tree then Adam would come to know death ( the bad/evil )

In Scripture the title word God/god means Supreme One. The word God is Not the Tetragrammaton YHWH
Isn't it according to Genesis 3:5 that the liar Satan is speaking ?_______- John 8:44
The Hebrew has at Genesis 3:22 that man has become like the Unique One among us, knowing good and bad......
Wasn't Adam told that the ' bad ' would be death at Genesis 2:17 ? ______
So, only after eating from the forbidden tree then Adam would come to know death ( the bad/evil )

In Scripture the title word God/god means Supreme One. The word God is Not the Tetragrammaton YHWH
Please notice the use of the word ' God/god ' at Psalms 82:1-3; Psalms 82:4-6; Psalms 82:7-8
Those human judges ( gods ) were to judge by using God's judgement on matters.
Moses was made ' god ' to Aaron and Pharaoh - Exodus 4:16; Exodus 7:1
Some people's ' god ' is their belly - Philippians 3:19
Jesus too believed there is only one God - John 4:23-24, and that he still has a God over him - Revelation 3:12

Please notice the use of the word ' God/god ' at Psalms 82:1-3; Psalms 82:4-6; Psalms 82:7-8
Those human judges ( gods ) were to judge by using God's judgement on matters.
Moses was made ' god ' to Aaron and Pharaoh - Exodus 4:16; Exodus 7:1
Some people's ' god ' is their belly - Philippians 3:19

Jesus too believed there is only one God - John 4:23-24, ad that he still has a God over him - Revelation 3:12

I believe what it means is the man has awakened, so he has became like God, he has found the God like mind. The other way it says it, you eat from the tree of knowledge and you will surely die, is maybe that is the actual death of your physical self being explained there, and it was interpreted wrong. Maybe it meant to let man free to learn, he has to learn the way. The way isn't given to him. Let man walk to earth and learn, let him see the good and the evil, he will grow from it. Everyone needs to learn and grow from it.

YHWH I believe is the male and female awakening to knowledge, to the truth. The path you take to get there. The letters are meanings for the different steps. Have you looked at the letters in Hebrew? They are very interesting, they match the shape of Stonehenge. Maybe that is something they studied back then and built for studying awakening, to what is God really? I think it may simply also be another misinterpretation of the letters, and some are missing. Many are missing, most is missing from what the letters meant to form?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
God appeared to me in a dream and told me that our universe was all a drunken mistake, he'd been on the Guinness and wasn't thinking clearly. He wrote our universe off as a bad job, and has since created several much better ones.

He tried to get another God to take over our universe but unfortunately none of them will touch it with a bargepole because it is such a mess. He sends his apologies. :p
 
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Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
If He intervene directly to your life He wouldnt see who you really are because you would behave and hide yourself by you are knowing that He is exists.
Interesting comment. It reminds me of the time-travel paradox. If you can see the future, you change it by seeing it. Therefore you can't see the future.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Interesting comment. It reminds me of the time-travel paradox. If you can see the future, you change it by seeing it. Therefore you can't see the future.

Aiviu is right, and I take it further: Creating the universe to spawn sentient creatures with free will is the sole purpose for God (if It exists) to create the universe. An omnipotent God could do anything else instantly.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
The creator is a sadistic observer of his personal zoo.

If that's the case, then why not just create us all in hell so he can sit in the peanut gallery with you and laugh y'all's asses off. Methinks your only desire is to take cynicism to the extreme. Why? Good question.
 
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