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Why does it matter so much to Michael Behe, and Ken Miller how God has used evolution?

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Michael Behe, and Ken Miller are both Christians. They both accept common descent, but have some serious disagreements about irreducible complexity. Consider the following:

Michael Behe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Michael Behe said:
"...both humans and chimps have a broken copy of a gene that in other mammals helps make vitamin C. ... It's hard to imagine how there could be stronger evidence for common ancestry of chimps and humans. ... Despite some remaining puzzles, there’s no reason to doubt that Darwin had this point right, that all creatures on earth are biological relatives.” The Edge of Evolution, pp 71-2.

"…it’s understandable that some people find the idea of common descent so astonishing that they look no further. Yet in a very strong sense the explanation of common descent is also trivial. Common descent tries to account only for the similarities between creatures. It says merely that certain shared features were there from the beginning – the ancestor had them...In contrast, Darwin’s hypothesized mechanism of evolution – the compound concept of random mutation paired with natural selection…tries to account for the differences between creatures. …What could cause such staggering transformations? …By far the most critical aspect of Darwin’s multifaceted theory is the role of random mutation. Almost all of what is novel and important in Darwinian thought is concentrated in this third concept." The Edge of Evolution, p 2.


The Flagellum Unspun

Ken Miller said:
In any discussion of the question of "intelligent design," it is absolutely essential to determine what is meant by the term itself. If, for example, the advocates of design wish to suggest that the intricacies of nature, life, and the universe reveal a world of meaning and purpose consistent with an overarching, possibly Divine intelligence, then their point is philosophical, not scientific. It is a philosophical point of view, incidentally, that I share, along with many scientists. As H. Allen Orr pointed out in a recent review:

Plenty of scientists have, after all, been attracted to the notion that natural laws reflect (in some way that's necessarily poorly articulated) an intelligence or aesthetic sensibility. This is the religion of Einstein, who spoke of "the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence" and of the scientist's "religious feeling [that] takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law." (Orr 2002).
This, however, is not what is meant by "intelligent design" in the parlance of the new anti-evolutionists. Their views demand not a universe in which the beauty and harmony of natural law has brought a world of vibrant and fruitful life into existence, but rather a universe in which the emergence and evolution of life is made expressly impossible by the very same rules. Their view requires that the source of each and every novelty of life was the direct and active involvement of an outside designer whose work violated the very laws of nature he had fashioned. The world of intelligent design is not the bright and innovative world of life that we have come to know through science. Rather, it is a brittle and unchanging landscape, frozen in form and unable to adapt except at the whims of its designer.

Certainly, the issue of design and purpose in nature is a philosophical one that scientists can and should discuss with great vigor. However, the notion at the [heart] of [today's] intelligent design movement is that the direct intervention of an outside designer can be demonstrated by the very existence of complex biochemical systems. What even they acknowledge is that their entire scientific position rests upon a single assertion – that the living cell contains biochemical machines that are irreducibly complex. And the bacterial flagellum is the prime example of such a machine.
Such an assertion, as we have seen, can be put to the test in a very direct way. If we are able to search and find an example of a machine with fewer protein parts, contained within the flagellum, that serves a purpose distinct from motility, the claim of irreducible complexity is refuted. As we have also seen, the flagellum does indeed contain such a machine, a protein-secreting apparatus that carries out an important function even in species that lack the flagellum altogether. A scientific idea rises or falls on the weight of the evidence, and the evidence in the case of the bacterial flagellum is abundantly clear.

As an icon of anti-evolution, the flagellum has fallen.

The very existence of the Type III Secretory System shows that the bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex. It also demonstrates, more generally, that the claim of "irreducible complexity" is scientifically meaningless, constructed as it is upon the flimsiest of foundations – the assertion that because science has not yet found selectable functions for the components of a certain structure, it never will. In the final analysis, as the claims of intelligent design fall by the wayside, its advocates are left with a single, remaining tool with which to battle against the rising tide of scientific evidence. That tool may be effective in some circles, of course, but the scientific community will be quick to recognize it for what it really is – the classic argument from ignorance, dressed up in the shiny cloth of biochemistry and information theory.

When three leading advocates of intelligent design were recently given a chance to make their case in an issue of Natural History magazine, they each concluded their articles with a plea for design. One wrote that we should recognize "the design inherent in life and the universe" (Behe 2002), another that "design remains a possibility" (Wells 2002), and another "that the natural sciences need to leave room for design" (Dembski 2002b). Yes, it is true. Design does remain a possibility, but not the type of "intelligent design" of which they speak.

As Darwin wrote, there is grandeur in an evolutionary view of life, a grandeur that is there for all to see, regardless of their philosophical views on the meaning and purpose of life. I do not believe, even for an instant, that Darwin's vision has weakened or diminished the sense of wonder and awe that one should feel in confronting the magnificence and diversity of the living world. Rather, to a person of faith it should enhance their sense of the Creator's majesty and wisdom (Miller 1999). Against such a backdrop, the struggles of the intelligent design movement are best understood as clamorous and disappointing double failures – rejected by science because they do not fit the facts, and having failed religion because they think too little of God.


Of particular note is Miller's comment that "the notion at the [heart] of [today's] intelligent design movement is that the direct intervention of an outside designer can be demonstrated by the very existence of complex biochemical systems." Why does it matter so much to Behe, and Miller, when and how God has directly intervened in evolution? What is "direct intervention"? If God created the weather, was Hurricane Katrina an example of direct intervention from God? If God originally created weather, and then left it alone, then Hurricane Katrina was not direct intervention, but it was indirect intervention since God originally created the weather.
 
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Runlikethewind

Monk in Training
The disagreement between Behe and Miller is about whether or not we can decisively and conclusively prove that God has intervened in the process of evolution. Behe argues that we can prove God's intervention and irreducible complexity is that proof. Miller argues that we can't. If God did intervene in evolution, there is no way for us to conclusively prove it. Miller brings up quantum indeterminacy in chapter 7 of his book Finding Darwin's God to show that God could intervene in the evolutionary process at the quantum level and we would have no way of knowing it in principle. Miller isn't even saying whether or not God did intervene, he is not addressing the question. Only that we can't prove it one way or the other.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Runlikethewind said:
The disagreement between Behe and Miller is about whether or not we can decisively and conclusively prove that God has intervened in the process of evolution. Behe argues that we can prove God's intervention and irreducible complexity is that proof. Miller argues that we can't. If God did intervene in evolution, there is no way for us to conclusively prove it. Miller brings up quantum indeterminacy in chapter 7 of his book Finding Darwin's God to show that God could intervene in the evolutionary process at the quantum level and we would have no way of knowing it in principle. Miller isn't even saying whether or not God did intervene, he is not addressing the question. Only that we can't prove it one way or the other.

Miller is a devout Roman Catholic, and has stated that he does believe that God has intervened in evolution. He has not provided scientific evidence for God's intervention in evolution, but that is what he believes.

Why isn't Behe content to accept that God has intervened in evolution at the quantum level? He already believes that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.
 

Runlikethewind

Monk in Training
Miller is a devout Roman Catholic, and has stated that he does believe that God has intervened in evolution. He has not provided scientific evidence for God's intervention in evolution, but that is what he believes.

He hasn't provided any scientific evidence because he doesn't think there is any. I can't speak for Miller personally but I do believe that is what he would say. I believe that God is involved in the evolutionary process and I also believe that His involvement is undetectable by definition and I believe that Miller would agree.

Why isn't Behe content to accept that God has intervened in evolution at the quantum level? He already believes that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

No he is not content because he wants proof. Behe wants to find the equivalent of a "made by God" label somewhere in the material world. I don't think such a thing exists and I think Miller would agree with me but again, I can't speak for him personally I can only say what I think he would say based on my reading of his work.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Runlikethewind said:
He hasn't provided any scientific evidence because he doesn't think there is any. I can't speak for Miller personally but I do believe that is what he would say. I believe that God is involved in the evolutionary process and I also believe that His involvement is undetectable by definition and I believe that Miller would agree.

I did not mean to imply that Miller believes that he has scientific proof, only that he believes that God has guided evolution.
 
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