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Featured Why Does God Permit Evil?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by nPeace, Jun 7, 2018.

  1. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Dumb thread.
     
  2. Thanda

    Thanda Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, but you have not answered where the desire for evil comes from. God has no desire for evil, so where did man get his? Who gave to him the desire to rebel against God and his teachings? For it is place that notwithstanding the power to choose man could never commit evil unless he first had the desire to do so. The question then is from whom came this desire?
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    A desire to rebel?
    If you are eating a Popsicle, or Ice pop, and rather than suck it, you decide to bite it. Why do you do that?
    Maybe you think it's melting too quickly, and you want all of it to end up in your stomach, and not on the ground.
    Whatever the reason, it a choice you make based on the knowledge you have in your mind.

    Every decision one makes does not come from God, does it?
    Did the decision to make and use the atom bomb come from God? No it didn't.
    The choices we make come from our ability to think, formulate, and act on our thoughts and ideas.
     
  4. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    My apologies. I misremembered, thinking it was in the "Why don't you believe in god?" thread. But I could see that you invested effort into it.

    But frankly, it wasn't too memorable. It looks more aimed at the KenS. You ignored my point, and repeated a lot of things I have already heard a zillion times.

    Let me repeat my point. The father in the story shows no sign of existing, much less caring, much less communicating with any of my siblings.
    When I look around at the world, that's exactly what I see. No God, except a character that humans claim to know and who agrees with them about whatever they think is important. A fictional character, that humans create in their own image and for their own purposes.
    Tom
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    In that case, it seems like the Janes and the Jacks outnumber the Toms in how they see their father.
    Even if there were more Toms, it would still be a case of something is wrong with the way some of the children are seeking.

    This doesn't interfere with the father's desire for a united family, even if it excludes Toms, and include Jacks and Janes.
     
  6. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Doesn't mean that they are any better informed than overwhelming majority who believed that Creation was a lumpy plane, solidly fixed, with the sun revolving around it.

    You know, like the authors of Scripture.
    Tom
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    You mean like Tom believes.
    I guess we'll see.
     
  8. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    First, you do not have to have evil in the world to do good things....that's simply not true.

    Second, the "purification" baloney is nonsensical. Explain how a Hurricane or tornado or tsunami wiping out a quarter million people is "purifying" them.
    Explain how a child is "purified" by being raped..................
    If that what it takes for your god to accept a child as "purified" (whatever that means), then he is an ***.
     
  9. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Are you saying Salvation was a mightily difficult task for God? Perhaps dealing with us on our level instead of in omnipotence.

    What happens when the one who chooses life becomes a victim of the worst kinds of evils?

    Is it the believer's reasonable service to endure evil unbounded?

    Why make people fight the war?
     
  10. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Crow FreyjasmaðR

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    So your god is limited?

    Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, 2 Samuel 7:28, Psalm 119:160, Titus 1:2, and Hebrews 6:18 all claim that your god cannot lie. However, 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chronicles 18:22, Jeremiah 4:10, Jeremiah 20:7, Ezekiel 14:9, and 2 Thessalonians 2:11 all claim that your god can and does lie. So it seems like a divided issue, but if your god is all-powerful and can do anything he wants because he's god-the-one-and-only, then it stands to reason that yes, he can lie.

    No, I'm not.

    Oh, so the bible isn't the word of your god? Infallible and written by your god through human hands? Isaiah 45 begins "Thus said the Lord to his anointed".

    I may not know you personally or very well at all, but your hang-ups in this regard are written all over your responses; you don't think your god is capable of evil, and he's nothing but good and merciful. Neither was what I said ad hominem; this is literally why "The Devil" was created, because church leaders felt the need to justify and explain the existence of evil co-existing with an omnibenevolent deity. Biblical, as we can see, there's issue with this.

    I make the comment even if I knew you personally; you're not a superman or holy man, so save me the "if you knew to whom you're speaking".
     
  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Sure you can do some good things without evil in the world. But there are some things you couldn't do. Could you be a doctor? Heal someone? And there are so many other things you couldn't do.
    That's a one sided way to look at it this topic. Not everything evil that happens is to purify. Yet we know that suffering can have that effect. So that is one thing that it does do. It's just not the only thing it does.
     
  12. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    Not one sided...objective.
    Just for the sake of the argument, how do you tell evil that purifies from evil that does not?
    I would suggest that any god that can only purify something through unspeakable suffering is a weak, evil being.

    And would you define "purify"?
     
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    No. I'm not saying that?
    I believe it was wisdom on God's part to determine who would live forever in his righteous world, by allowing us to choose whether we want to live by his standards of righteousness, or not.

    All good questions.
    According to God's word in scripture, that one still gets life at the end of the day. A life where he never has to go through evil or suffering again.

    Romans 8
    Good News Translation (GNT)
    The Future Glory

    18 I consider that what we suffer at this present time cannot be compared at all with the glory that is going to be revealed to us. 19 All of creation waits with eager longing for God to reveal his children. 20 For creation was condemned to lose its purpose, not of its own will, but because God willed it to be so. Yet there was the hope 21 that creation itself would one day be set free from its slavery to decay and would share the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that up to the present time all of creation groans with pain, like the pain of childbirth. 23 But it is not just creation alone which groans; we who have the Spirit as the first of God's gifts also groan within ourselves as we wait for God to make us his children and set our whole being free. 24 For it was by hope that we were saved; but if we see what we hope for, then it is not really hope. For who of us hopes for something we see? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

    As the scripture above shows, it's not unbounded.
    Consider though... Suppose that everyone born, just lived one day and then died. Or suppose no one was ever born.
    Which do you prefer? One of the above, or to be alive, even though suffering, but having a sure hope that the suffering will end some day, not just for you, but for the entire world.
    Furthermore, the suffering you endure will be like one millisecond, completed compared to millenniums?

    Millions of people who have hope in God's promise of everlasting life free of suffering, evil, and death, are happy to endure. They appreciate their privilege to be alive, and get to know of their creator's qualifies and his purpose.

    Everyone has the opportunity to know of this hope.
    All it takes is a humble heart, and a hunger for truth, as well as an honest assessment of both.
     
    #133 nPeace, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    I read each of those scriptures, and none of them says God lies.
    They do show that he can allow persons to believe a lie, or allow a person to follow their own lying course.

    Can God become darkness?
     
  15. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Crow FreyjasmaðR

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    Then you're reading what you want to read. Kings and Chronicles tell of your god putting "lying spirits" in peoples mouths and making them lie. So there's "creating liars", as was asked. Jeremiah 4:10 says "Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem" Jeremiah 20:7 says "O LORD, thou hast deceived me" Ezekiel says "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet". Thessalonians says "God shall send them strong delusion"

    And if your god creates darkness, then it only stands to reason that he can become darkness.

    Is your god all-powerful and all that there is? Or is he limited by your positive hopes, sharing a stage with an evil figure that's able to thwart him constantly?
     
  16. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Still does not say he lied. Can you deceive someone without lying? I can.

    I already been through the darkness bit. You see it how you want. No blood spilled.
     
  17. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Crow FreyjasmaðR

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    No, you cannot. Playing fast-and-loose with words doesn't make you honest in deception. A lie is a lie.
     
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  18. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    I think we need other opinions on that.
    Difference between Lying and Deception
    Lying is a form of deception. Deception, however, does not always involve lying.
    Difference Between Lying and Deception | Lying vs Deception
    • Lying is to make a deliberate false statement.
    • Lying is usually verbal.

    • Deception is causing to believe something false.
    • Deception can both be intentional or else unintentional in which case the person becomes self-deceived.

    • Lying is only one form of deception.

    However, everyone has their opinion.
    I'm not going to argue over it, if someone continues to hold to their opinion.
     
    #138 nPeace, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  19. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    If you're a child of God then the evil in the world has the work of making you better. Because you are not a conqueror without a battle. For example the happiness that the mountain climber feels when they plant a flag on the peak is because the climb was so difficult. This is how evil purifies your faith, love, joy and any virtue because it is tested and therefore it's strengthened because it overcame temptation.

    So just like a climber needs to actually climb mountains to improve their climbing skills. The same thing to improve your moral character. Or just like anyone must exercise to grow their muscles.

    Or take courage. You can say it or show it.
    Faith you can say it, or show it.
    Faithfulness, you can say it or ... you get my point?
    May I suggest that maybe God knows more than you about this topic? And this is not the only way that God purifies. The main way that God purifies is through the unmerited favor of God. That is God working within someone to make them better. Not you, but the love of God in you. (Galatians 5:22-23)
    Do you want a dictionary definition or my take on it or something else? I don't know what to expect when people ask me to define a word. :emojconfused:

    The analogy is of refining of gold. You have to heat up and melt gold to make it pure. Otherwise it's just gold "ore". It's not necessarily that beautiful.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You’re still taking passages out of context, glomming them together, and drawing conclusions that were clearly not intended.
     
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