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Featured Why Does God Permit Evil?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by nPeace, Jun 7, 2018.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Hi there. Thank for dropping in on the discussion.
    On that scripture in Isaiah 45:7, what is your understanding, when it says
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You just made three very pertinent points.
    I'm sure you realize how valuable those points are to this discussion.
    Nice use of the scripture in Job.
    It is not God's perfect will that evil and suffering take place. It is Satan's will.
    Scripture says God is - he will fix, also undo all the the problems effected by evil and suffering. Revelation 21:3-5.
    God's right as sovereign is on trial. Satan is trying to make it look flawed. All his actions from his first act in the garden, has been a direct challenge against God's authority as ruler. But all the things taking place on earth proves that mankind cannot rule himself successfully independent of God - as Satan convinced man to believe.
    So once everything comes to a head, that issue would have been settled - God has the right to rule. He has the right to decide what is good, and what is bad. No more will that issue again need to come to trial, because it would have been written in the books- Settled.
    Then all the rebel - Satan, and all his supporters - will be crushed, gone forever - no more suffering, no more pain - gone forever, as Revelation 21 says.
     
    #82 nPeace, Jun 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  3. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    I'm not saying that. Your scripture - quoting your god - is. Not all that vaguely, even; he flat out says he creates good and evil because he can, because he's god. And as you said, according to that scripture it's an attitude of "my way or the highway".
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    The same scripture says he created darkness. What does that mean?
     
  5. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Possibly that the primitives who wrote Scripture didn't realize that darkness doesn't really exist?
    That only light has objective existence.
    We now know that, but primitive people didn't know a lot of things that we do now.
    Tom
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Or probably some of us reading these words do not understand what we are reading, simply because we feel that we know exactly what its saying, and we don't care to be bothered with any other texts or the surrounding context that might shed more light on what we are reading - because...
     
  7. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    Quite plainly it means that the god of Abraham is claiming to create everything. Even evil. Because he can, because he's god.
     
  8. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Remember my little story about siblings who believe that they know more about God than I do?
    That's what's going on here.
    Tom
     
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Yup, and I explained how and why that happens. If I were to pull out a few scriptures to challenge the view, it would make no difference.
    The scriptures also explained why it happens.
    Did not Jesus and the apostles face the same?
    Who was it that plotted on how to get rid of Jesus, and called for his blood? Who was it that stoned Stephen to death?
    The chief priests - religious leaders.

    It will be an ongoing situation, until Satan gets to be out of the way.
     
  10. Thanda

    Thanda Well-Known Member

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    This question is insurmountable as long as one believes that God created (ex nihilo) everything that exists in the Universe.

    If he created everything then there is no logical answer that can be given as to why there is any evil in the world.

    On the other hand if you take the view that the Universe is as eternal as God himself and that God's creative acts are more a forming and reforming of what is already there then it begins to be possible to provide a coherent answer as to why there is evil in the world.

    Under this premise the explanation for why there is evil in the world is very easily explained. It is similar to the explanation of why there is darkness. Darkness exists wherever light does not. Likewise evil exists wherever goodness does not. God seeks to propagate good throughout the Universe among all intelligent creatures. But being intelligent they have a choice- whether to accept his goodness or reject it. Wherever his goodness is rejected or is not available, there evil lives.

    Having said the above I wish to make a distinction. There is a difference between evil and undesirable. Evil is committed by intelligent agents when they choose to act against that which is good. It comes in two forms - wilful and ignorant.
    Undesirable is anything that disturbs our comfort. This includes evil acts, natural disasters, disease and accidents etc.

    My answer deals only with the Evil as defined above, not with other undesirable events.
     
  11. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    Of course there is, and you omitting "unfortunate events" makes it all the easier. Your god created and gave Free Will, ergo gave the ability (created) for beings to defy his will. As such your god created and allowed for the action of "sin" and evil.
     
  12. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Sounds like you aren’t a marriage counsellor. :D
     
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  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yeah, but it’s disingenuous to pull disparate passages out of context and claim that “God is evil.” What’s the context? Why did the writer have God say that? Is it some kind of literary device, such as hyperbole, and not intended to be taken literalistically? You have to look at the overarching picture that the writers are painting with their texts. If you do that, remembering the cultural standards of the time and place, God is depicted, not as evil, but as compassionate and just.

    Does that stand in juxtaposition to our perspectives of what constitutes “beneficent?” Of course. But then, we’re not the intended audience.
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering why you didn't respond to my response though. I spent an entire morning writing it, along with the conclusion.
    Here is the conclusion:
    Connection:
    Long before Tom is born...
    The father had the desire for a huge united family.

    God created both heaven and earth with the intention of having a universal family - in heaven and on earth. (Psalm 115:16)
    One of God's sons in heaven became rebellious, and was later joined by others. The first human pair on earth also took a rebellious course, bringing suffering and death to all mankind. (1 John 3:8; Jude 6; Romans 5:12)
    That's a lot of rebellious children, so of course things as not going as the father desired, but he hasn't given up on his present or future children. He is positive - 1000% sure he will have that united family.
    God's purpose temporarily interupted, he promised a savior that would accomplish his purpose for a universal family. (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16; Ephesians 1:9, 10)
    God first chose the Nation of Israel as his named people, through his promise to Abraham - a man of faith.
    It was his means of blessing all mankind, through the Messiah - which was the promised (savior} seed of Abraham. (Genesis 22:18)
    Unfortunately, the Nation failed to live up to their side of the promise to remain faithful to God. The priests became corrupt and oppressed and misguided the people. (Jeremiah 23)
    More wayward children. Some of the siblings are obviously annoyed at their behavior.
    God did not cast them off, until the seed - the Messiah did arrive. (Matthew 10:5, 6; Matthew 23:37-39)
    Now that the Messiah has arrived God uses that one as a means of bringing pople to righteousness.
    A child that truly listens to his father and obeys, is a blessing, not only to the father, but other family members.
    When Jesus Christ came to earth, there were corrupt Jewish religious leaders who failed to teach the people the sacred laws of God. (Matthew 23)
    The Messiah gathers people, and teaches them to carry out that ministry - bringing people to righteousness.
    Yes many more children are listening and being obedient. They could see the conflict going on, and at times they have to defend their dad, and the truth about what their father said, but they must, because some of their sibling are rebellious, and good-for-nothing, and having a negative impact on some of the others.
    The True Christian congregation formed by the apostles of Christ, and grew in the midst of these corrupt Jewish leaders. (Acts 2; Acts 11:26)
    A period of time came when some among those who came in, became good-for-nothing, and started distorting the teachings given by the Messiah. (Acts 20:29, 30)
    Throughout this dark period, many searched in vain for truth. Bits and pieces of it remained but it was distorted by those who taught falsehood.
    At that time Tom is grown, and searching for answers, but the situation with the family's disunited had come a far way.
    Some people never gave up in their search though, and bits and pieces kept being found and joining together.
    Some of Tom's siblings still try to get close to their father.
    God used those who were willing to keep searching, and applying truth, and spreading it to others.
    In time he gathered them as one, and chose them as his named people - to bring people to righteousness. (Luke 10:1; Matthew 24:14)
    Some of those siblings are greatly valued by the father because of their love for him, and their willingness to obey. So he fully trusts them to convey his words to all the other siblings. He still listens and speaks to them, but he instructs them as to which of the siblings they should listen to. (Matthew 17:5; 2 Corinthians 5:20; Matthew 28:19, 20)
    Many of the other siblings listen to, and follow these instructions, and benefit greatly from having a closer relationship with their father, and other brothers and sisters, (Psalms 133:1; Acts 2:42-47) despite the fact that many of the others are disunited, wayward, disobedient, and contentious. (Matthew 7:13-23).
    Some allow the negative they see around them to stumble them - like Tom.
    Well he has a choice.
    He can either try, and keep trying to draw close to his father (James 4:8), or he can draw away (Hebrews 3:12).
    The father loves him, but he's not going to force him.
    If Tom responds favorably he will benefit from a united family that are in a close relationship with their father, and look forward to the time when their father's desire will be a reality - one universal family in love.


    The End

    Comments...
    This is what I call wisdom.
    God makes life both in heaven and earth, and give them free will /choice. They could choose to obey him, or otherwise.
    Some in heaven choose to disobey. The ones on earth, choose to disobey, incited by one from heaven.
    God allows the situation to run its course, while putting hs own measures in place.
    A savior would come and open the way to salvation for all who choose to take it, and in the end he will remove all who choose otherwise.
    What wisdom.

    There is really no loss here God in his wisdom really allowed all intelligent being to either choose life or death.
    In other words, to choose whether they wanted to live under his authority - which means abiding by his standards of what is right and just - or not. If you want to live by his standards, fine - life. If not - your choice - death.

    It's the same as, if someone is dwelling under your roof, and you have some rules.
    You know how it goes with some people, "Man, I couldn't care less about your rules."
    So you make it clear, "You want to stay. Fine. Abide by the rules. You don't want to abide by the rules. Your choice. Leave."
    We face that same situation today.
     
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  15. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    nice...
     
  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I f he created everything, it means that he has first hand knowledge of everything that takes place, so wouldn't he then be able to provide the answer as to why there is evil?

    If you for example made some invention, surely you would be able to give a reason for why something doesn't work the way you designed it to.

    This is what I was thinking
    So I'm thinking, the only way for that what you are saying here to be true, these intelligent agents would have to had existed eternally as with the eternal universe. Would you agree?
     
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  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Sorry The Ragin Pagan

    I'll like to start over.
    I want to see if we are both in agreement, but seeming to disagree.
    I understand this to be a reality.
    I enter a lighted room, hit the switch, and everything is dark. I might say, "I created darkness." Not that I took something in my hands and formed darkness.
    I may be at peace with someone, then something happens that causes me to react against that person. It would be as though I create war or evil against that person.

    Is this the way one might look at it, or the way you see it?
    Perhaps you can explain how you see it.
     
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  18. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    You have the right perspective. God creates darkness. It's not that God wants to. Think of a cloud blocking the sun ... or a swarm of locusts blocking the sun. Etc. Obviously we're speaking of a metaphor but it's literally true that one can create darkness.

    This prophecy in Isaiah 45 was addressed to Cyrus a Persian and probably a believer in Zoroastrianism. It is likely designed to counter the teaching of Zoroastrianism that the God of light and the god of darkness existed separately from each other. This way Cyrus can see that God claims He made both the Light and the darkness. This refutes the idea that evil is as strong as good. God is in control and Almighty. He will create darkness and He will end it also. (Malachi 4:2)
     
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  19. Thanda

    Thanda Well-Known Member

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    If something doesn't work the way I designed it to it means I lack the skill and judgement to make it properly. Furthermore whatever errors there are are my own fault.

    Likewise if God created all things then all evil is his own fault.

    Precisely. That is why I subscribe to the belief that there is a part of us that has always existed, which God never created or made. And God is trying to teach us to become more like him, that we may grow.
     
  20. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    Only, that's not what I said. The passages are your god literally saying that he creates everything, even evil. That is the "overarching picture"; nothing happens or exists without your god's say-so.

    Your personal hang-ups about this are exactly why "The Devil" was created.

    I have no clue what your example is supposed to illustrate. The verses from your own holy book say that your god creates good and evil. Your god creates everything.

    Let me put it this way. If I'm playing a SIMs game, I am the entity that created their deluxe house and lucrative jobs, and I'm also the entity that killed their son by locking him in a burning room. Me, and only me.
     
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