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Featured Why Does God Only Speak Through Humans?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Mar 22, 2019.

  1. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    If God were an objectively real being, why would he need to use men to write the bible, rather than writing it himself? Why would he speak through "prophets" rather than speak directly to mankind? It would be very easy for God to reveal his existence. He could simply directly communicate with humans, rather than needing intermediary humans to reach humans. The fact that no one ever hears about God directly from God is to me, one of the biggest pieces of evidence against the existence of God. A real god would not need to speak through human "prophets" and holy books written by humans. Yet every religion is traceable back to a human, not to an actual deity.

    Let's consider a specific example. I recall being in church as a kid, and the preacher asked everyone in the congregation to tell him how they were "saved." Every congregation member who claimed to be "saved" said that their "salvation" was either a result of another human who "shared the gospel" with them or a result of them reading the bible, a book written by humans. None of them were "saved" because God addressed them directly, without the usage of human intermediaries. It was always either a family member, friend, pastor, priest, or prophet (author of a "scripture") whose words led to their "salvation." It was never an experience in which the deity addressed them directly. Funny coincidence, huh?

    It would be very easy to convert me to your religion. Simply provide me documented evidence of someone who learned about the stories of your religion without hearing from one of your preachers or reading one of your holy books. For instance, if evidence could be presented of someone who learned about Jesus' crucifixion story and resurrection story from God directly (say, through a dream, vision, or hearing a voice, without reading the bible or listening to missionaries) in a part of the world entirely isolated from Christianity, I would be intrigued. But this never occurs. The logical explanation of this is that religions, as well as gods, are all man-made, and thus, no one ever hears about gods from the gods themselves, but instead, always only from humans, because humans are the ones who invented them.
     
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  2. ManSinha

    ManSinha Active Member

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    You make a pretty darned good argument

    The other side of that discussion would center around this - if one travels to another country with a different language - say - (an all too human analogy for this discussion) - one would have among the following options

    1. Have difficulty getting by
    2. Learn the language
    2a. Find someone willing to impart the knowledge
    2b. Learn oneself without other assistance

    I would aver that that there are individuals who choose option 2b. They are spiritual but not religious - they try to do what they consider are "right" and "moral" things - but they never shout it from the rooftops.

    As @Jainarayan pointed out in another post - this is one the places where Abrahamics part ways with the Dharmics - is that the Dharmic view of the Lord is not a transactional one - there is little to no interaction with the material world as we know it.

    You would be fine if the very next question is - then why the heck should we believe? What is the payoff?
     
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  3. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    (so-called New Ager type here)

    I do believe sometimes people are directly affected by non-physical beings to aid their spiritual progress.

    And also I think the purpose of life is Self-Realization. The game/goal of realizing we are all One Consciousness (God/Brahman). We can also use each other in this growing process.
     
  4. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    The fundamental root of what you wrote about is postulating a God who is a separate being with great powers. That is a dualistic view often viewed as a figure on a cloud looking down while people get a pain in their necks looking up.

    So from another perspective, people's views about God are indeed man made but that does not mean that the Divine is man made. The sages and saints of various traditions point in another direction. For example, Kabir:

    Does Khuda live in the mosque?
    Then who who lives everywhere?
    Is Ram in idols and holy ground?
    Have you looked and found him there?
    Hari in the East, Allah in the West -
    So you like to dream.
    Search in the heart, in the heart alone:
    There live Ram and Karim.
     
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  5. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    My God doesn't speak through humans, so the question is moot.
     
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  6. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    True. Personally, I think that if there really were sitcoms, why would we need TVs to view them. Yeah, and about the internet. You're not really there you know.
     
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  7. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    While I believe the God of the Bible chose to primary use humans to convey the gospel it is not because He needs humans to share the good news about Christ, but because He desires to include human beings in His work of loving others and bringing the message of forgiveness and eternal life.

    Yet, your idea that God never directly saves someone is incorrect. It does occur and is occurring...

    “In the last days,” says God, “I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.” (Joel 2:28)

    " For decades, a well-documented phenomenon has been occurring in the Muslim world—men and women who, without knowledge of the gospel, or contact among Christians in their community, have experienced dreams and visions of Jesus Christ. The reports of these supernatural occurrences often come from “closed countries” where there is no preaching of the good news and where converting to Christianity can invoke the death sentence. But these are more than just dreams. Setting them apart is the intense reality of the experience and the surrender of one’s heart and mind to Christ in the wake of the dream. A common denominator appears to be that the dreams come to those who are seeking—as best they can—to know and please God."

    Continue to read individual accounts...
    More Than Dreams: Muslims Coming to Christ Through Dreams and Visions | Lausanne World Pulse Archives






     
    #7 InChrist, Mar 22, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  8. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    Hubert Farnsworth,
    What you are saying shows NO forethought, or good reasoning.
    If God’s message were not written in a book, every person who heard the message, would mix up what was told him, or the next person who related the message from God would change, either accidentally or on purpose.
    I believe that the Creator of Heaven and earth knows a little more than you do about getting the life giving message around.
    As far as I can tell, you are the worst Superficialist I have ever seen. I guess you have never read a book, and believed anything you read in it, or listened to a teacher in a school, and believed what they said. You have received everything you know first hand, by seeing everything actually done in front of you, or being there when God Created everything.
    If there is anything of a more wasteful time as to try to help a person to life, who acts like he does not believe everything unless he actually sees everything when it happened.
    According to academics, there is more proof that Jesus walked this earth in the first century, than there is that Abraham Lincoln existed. I am sure you do not believe that Lincoln existed. If you do that proves that what you rely on is totally fake.
    God used men to transmit His message so that any reasoning person, would be able to understand that no humans could make a book written over a period of 1,610 years, by 40ty different men, and have the book be more up to date than any book in any library. The Bible is completely in harmony with all Bible writers, which is impossible with mankind. The Bible tells things that no man, on earth knew, at the time of writing.
    One of the most important points of the Bible is the Prophecies written in it, some being fulfilled in a short time, while others were fulfilled over thousands of years, Since mankind cannot prophecy anything, even a minute later, and get it right 100% of the time, how can you believe anything they say???
    The Almighty God had His book written in a way that wise men(in their own mind) cannot understand, but those who have a humble and questioning heart can, no matter how old. This is one reasons that Jesus spoke in Parables, so that the interested ones could ask about the answers, while people who thought they were wise would not try to find truth, and would end up dying for eternity.
    Most people are just like you, all they want to do is try to find a reason for not obeying what the Bible requires. The trouble with that is; men have been trying to find anything wrong in the Bible, for hundreds of years, and there has been nothing proved wrong in the Holy Bible. Everything they thought was wrong, turned out to be a lack of Bible knowledge.
    The Bible is a miracle itself, and could not possibly be written by anyone but The Almighty God, whose name is Jehovah, in English.
     
  9. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    These videos, as well as the other accounts on the website you shared, are all simply other examples of people who converted to Christianity after first hearing about Jesus and Christianity. None of the examples that you provided show an example of a person who converted to Christianity with no prior knowledge of the religion. All of the converts in those examples are people who had at least a vague idea of Jesus, and knew the overall Christian story, but most of them were not Christians simply because Christianity was forbidden in their country. I don't want to come across as being too condescending, but I wonder if you actually watched the videos that you linked me to. The second video shows a guy getting "saved" after watching a preacher on TV! This is just further confirmation of what I alluded to in the OP--that everyone who converts to a religion has at least some prior knowledge of the religion.
     
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  10. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    Any desire I had to take the opening post seriously evaporated with the erroneous claim that "no one ever hears about God directly from God." I'm not Abrahamic, and even I'm aware of contemporaries communicating directly with the one-god or its representatives, like saints and angels.

    It was reinforced by ridiculous demands and conflating Abrahamic monotheisms with all religions and theisms.
     
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  11. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Fine. Then why didn't God write the book himself? A real deity would not need men to write his "message" down for him, he would write the book himself and give it to humans directly.
     
  12. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    I'm aware of the existence of unexplained, "mystical" experiences. What I am referring to is the fact that no one hears about the specific god of any particular religion directly from that god prior to first hearing about that god from a human.
     
  13. ManSinha

    ManSinha Active Member

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    Because - like has been pointed out before - religion and god are human created - the divine is not
     
  14. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I did watch the videos. I am not sure what you expect since most people, even those in non-Christians countries do not live in isolated caves with no contact to the outside world. People do have some access to information have as you said some vague ideas about Christianity. Your expectations are nonsensical, in my opinion, because I believe the God of the Bible is a Beings who interacts with humanity through the reality of life.
     
  15. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Gods are actually mental puppets. An extension of the psyche. The same thing when a kid has an imaginary friend complete with interactions conversations Etc.

    God only speak through humans because it's humans that are actually the voice itself by which its strings are pulled and manipulated.
     
  16. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    It's not a fact. It's a symptom of a culture whose dominant religion basically discourages or forbids directly working with the gods. Spend some time with new/alternative religious movements and you'll notice working with the gods directly - often times without hearing about it from another human - is routine. It's certainly routine in my tradition. There is no body of lore I can even go to from some other human to learn about the spirits of the land here. I have to do all the work myself, from scratch. And that's how all the traditions start - someone has to do the ground work. Only after that do traditions sometimes get established, but none of that prohibits continued direct contact with the gods by others.
     
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  17. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    This is generally true in the 21st century. In other historical periods, however, there were many large groups of people who had never heard of Christianity or Jesus. Native American tribes come to mind as an immediate example. There was never a documented occurrence of a Native American who wrote about/believed in the Christian religion before the European missionaries arrived. Now, if the God of the bible were real, and wanted people to believe in him, and had the power to save people, he would not need to wait for Christopher Columbus. He could have delivered the message of Jesus directly to the Native Americans. But he didn't. Funny coincidence, huh?
     
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  18. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I believe God gives light to the righteous so they can receive justice and takes it away from the unrighteous so they can receive mercy.

    "Heavenly Father guides us and gives us the experiences we need based on our strengths, weaknesses, and choices so that we might bear good fruit." - Brian K. Ashton
     
    #18 robocop (actually), Mar 22, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  19. The_Fisher_King

    The_Fisher_King Ploughing my own furrow
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    I (believe that I) commune directly with the Highest God myself all the time.
     
  20. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    LOL, Look up Balem's Donkey.
     
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